Re: [boost] Re: ANN: review of FSM library starts
First, I appologize for messing up the threading, but I get the digest and so can't respond directly.
Have you ever had a look at other FSM libraries? I think boost::fsm is less messy than any other library I've seen.
Unfortunately, no. My response is based on the fact that 1) I generally think I know what fsm are about, 2) I'm comfortable seeing complex template stuff, yet 3) sample code for simple state machines just didn't click for me. I feel like I'm in the target audience of the library, so I'm looking deeper to see if I can figure out why.
// I guess there's no way to avoid declaring // these ahead of time?? class Machine, State1, State2, Event1, Event2;
Actually there is, but I found out about this only recently (Peter Dimov mentioned this in an unrelated post) and haven't changed the docs because I feared that this does not work on all compilers:
Instead of
struct Greeting; struct Machine : fsm::state_machine< Machine, Greeting > {};
you can write:
struct Machine : fsm::state_machine< Machine, struct Greeting > {};
Ok, good to know. I'd like to hash out what the "ideal world" would look like and compromise from there, if you know what I mean.
struct S1Data { int i; S1Data() : i(0) {} };
typedef simple_state< Machine, S1Data, BOOST_TYPEOF( cout << constant("Entering State1.") ), BOOST_TYPEOF( cout << constant("Exiting State1.") ), on_event<Event1, BOOST_TYPEOF( _1->i++ ) >, transition<Event1, State2> > State1; // the "data" member of State1 has type S1Data, and is // passed into event handlers
You consider this more readable? Sorry, I have to disagree. For entry and exit actions and extended state variables I consider my approach superior, for reaction definition, your approach seems about equivalent.
I think this is how my example would look using the current library, right? struct State1 : simple_state< State1, Machine, custom_reaction< Event1 >, transition< Event1, struct State2 > > { int i; State1() : i(0) { cout << "Entering State1."; } ~State1() { cout << "Exiting State1."; } result react( const Event1 & ) { i++; } }; That's actually not so bad. I've defined both a reaction and a transition on the same event; not sure if you're supposed to do that. Now I'm wondering if there's a way with mpl to determine if a class has a function with a certain signature. Can you eliminate the need for "custom_reaction< Event1 >" and just test whether or not the class implements "result react( const Event1 & )" ? If you could somehow hide the CRT mechanism, and specify children instead of parents, maybe you could boil down to something like so: DEFINE_STATE(State1, transition< Event1, struct State2 >) { int i; State1() : i(0) { cout << "Entering State1."; } ~State1() { cout << "Exiting State1."; } result react( const Event1 & ) { i++; } }; And I think that's about as obvious as you can make it. But that may just be wishful thinking.
I don't understand, you do define states top-down in boost::fsm.
Maybe I'm confused, but as best as I can tell, you specify parents instead of specifying children. So, if StateX has StateY and StateZ as inner states, instead of saying StateX : StateY + StateZ, you say StateY -> StateX; StateZ -> StateX.
it's my impression that with mpl one can iterate through the template arguments and figure out if they are events or transitions or whatever. So I smushed together the different
One sure can but that would duplicate mpl::list<> functionality to a certain degree.
For "real-world" uses, this seems unimportant. However, for the tutorial and basic examples, I think it would be a good idea if you can silently ignore mpl. Of course those examples should compile and work... I don't have a feel for whether I'm asking for a mountain or a molehill here, so I'll let it be.
Given that the approach you outlined above really works, I think you can use lambda for transitions without changing a single line of boost::fsm, you simply define your own reaction that accepts typeofed lambda expressions instead of function pointers for transition actions. I'm not so sure whether the same is possible with entry/exit actions but I'm inclined to think that it is (that would require deriving your own state class template from simple_state).
Most people get used to the syntax of boost::fsm quite quickly. Also, I've received feedback that
I think it would be nice to have a mechanism that accepts lambdas, though I'll concede it is better to avoid it for "average joe" programmer. But since fsm is compile time, an advanced user might use another library/technique to programmatically generate the code she wants as a lambda type. It's always seemed that lambda had great potential as a compile time code generator, and fsm is a place where one might concievably stick it. people
really like the fact that they can easily put the bodies of complex actions in cpp files, I *guess* that would be a little more difficult with your approach.
Now I'm thinking that maybe a macro or two added to what you've got, just to hide some of the machinery, is all that it would take to get what I'm looking for. I'll grant you that I'm struggling to come up with what I think is "ideal." My main goal is boost::fsm using code should be reasonably "guessable" by an educated reader in short order. Basically, my coworkers should be able to look at my code and mostly be able to guess what was going on. [snip]
I'd say it takes one day tops of playing around with boost::fsm to learn this.
My concern is intimidating potential new users more than necessary. Like I said initially, I might have missed a ton of discussion about this from before. If you can point me to a thread where interface issues were hashed out in great detail already, I'll take a look.
I did consider using named template parameters, but rejected it because it would add to the amount of text you have to write and would offer a benefit only for beginners.
Me, I would probably cater a little more to the beginners, since I think getting more people to use FSM than previously would have to be a good thing.
tutorial just made my head spin, especially trying to figure out how states and machines get tied together (this is still unclear to me).
I guess you mean how the implementation ties them toghether? As a user, why do you need to know that?
As I already mentioned in another post: Targetting every C++ developer would require an *additional* document at least as thick as the current tutorial. I think it is reasonable to expect
When I first looked at the sample code, I was hunting high and low, thinking to myself, "Where on earth does it specify which states belong to which?" previous
exposure to FSMs.
Yes, I do not suggest writing your own guide to FSMs.
In general, I would drop all mention of UML except for some appendix somewhere (and the reference manual too).
Why?
I think it's a distraction. Sure, it's great that you've got this nice correspondance with UML, but that's unimportant *in the tutorial*. Mention it on the about page, have an appendix all about it, go into detail in the references, etc.
"Getting Started" and "Target Audience" should be in a differenct document, and
Please make a suggestion.
Probably just in index.html.
"How to read this tutorial" should be removed.
Why?
To me, is unnecessary verbiage. It doesn't say anything important. Perhaps you need better headings in the TOC. The ToC is currently broken up by the name of the example; perhaps rather than "StopWatch," say "Simple Finite State Machines - A StopWatch example."
In general, all of your "remarks" and "comments" need to be in the code!
You're the second person to request that. I personally think it is better to not clutter code with too many comments. If people think it is better to have all comments in the code, I'll sure change it.
I think the example state machines are basically OK, but I think that it is absolutely essential that you include a simple example that is alphabet-based. In fact, some helper functions for alphabet-based languages are probably a good idea, just to make
Having it in the code, both in the tutorial and in the example files, would help a lot, IMO. Especially the example files. If you could give me a better overview of the process and hold my hand better about which template parameters are which, I think I would have been much less confused. the
tutorial easier.
Why?
Well, maybe this isn't the norm, but I was taught FSMs using alphabets-as-events. One of the first things *I* would do with the library is try and implement some examples out of my old college text. I figured most people were taught this way, and so having an example with that would help connect with something familiar.
You mean the mapping between the pressed key and the generated event? Why?
I think it's probably a common thing to want to test your state machine by triggering events from the keyboard in a console app.
I'm confused about why entering/exiting states causes construction/ destruction. It's taken as a given,
It is not: http://tinyurl.com/5mjra (State-local storage)
That's explaining why you offer state-local storage, which I have no qualms with. It doesn't explain why you use the constructor/destructor mechanism, it's just stated that's the way it is.
but I would tend to assume that state-local-storage is maintained throughout unless I explicitly reset it.
Why?
Ok, I think I figured something out since I wrote this. You're relying on nesting states to maint data. I think this needs to be explained in big neon signs. I don't think of exiting a state as destroying it, just that it's no longer "active" or whatever. Your model is like a window manager that closes a window every time a different window gets the focus and reopens the first window upon return. Of course, having lost all data imbetween. Maybe hoisting your data up to an enclosing space is a good idea, but I'm not used to working with nested states, so I don't really think that way. I'm willing to be convinced, although I'm suspicious.
I'm also surprised by the lack of "accept" states. Maybe it's not universal, but my theory certainly had them, and it's just disconcerting for them not to be there.
I don't know what accept states are. UML doesn't have them.
Now, I'm in no way an academic, so I'm relying on Wikipedia to tell me what's "normal." Since it's in line with my old textbook, I guess it's reasonably standard. Wikipedia tells me that there "acceptor" and "transducer" finite state machines. I've not worked with the "transducer" variety before; my text deals with them only in the exercises. At any rate, with an "acceptor" FSM, if after processing all input you are in an "accept" state, the input was legal, the operation was successful, whatever. Otherwise there was an error. Not that everybody will use them, but it would be nice to be able to mark states as accept-states and ask the machine if the current state is an accept-state. I would certainly recommend adding http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite_state_machine to your list of links about FSMs. Cheers- Augustus __________________________________ Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/
Augustus Saunders <infinite_8_monkey <at> yahoo.com> writes:
First, I appologize for messing up the threading, but I get the digest and so can't respond directly.
OT: the gmane web interface isn't too bad if that helps at all.
Now I'm wondering if there's a way with mpl to determine if a class has a function with a certain signature. Can you eliminate the need for "custom_reaction< Event1 >" and just test whether or not the class implements "result react( const Event1 & )" ?
Why the interest in minimising the effort of writing custom reactions? They are a bit of a low level access method, and result (in less trivial, non-inline examples) in hiding what the transitions destination state is. Normally, you wouldn't use many custom reactions.
Most people get used to the syntax of boost::fsm quite quickly. Also, I've received feedback that people really like the fact that they can easily put the bodies of complex actions in cpp files, I *guess* that would be a little more difficult with your approach.
Now I'm thinking that maybe a macro or two added to what you've got, just to hide some of the machinery, is all that it would take to get what I'm looking for.
I'm not seeing what there is that I would want hidden. What do you think needs hiding?
As I already mentioned in another post: Targetting every C++ developer would require an *additional* document at least as thick as the current tutorial. I think it is reasonable to expect previous exposure to FSMs.
Yes, I do not suggest writing your own guide to FSMs.
In general, I would drop all mention of UML except for some appendix somewhere (and the reference manual too).
Why?
I think it's a distraction. Sure, it's great that you've got this nice correspondance with UML, but that's unimportant *in the tutorial*. Mention it on the about page, have an appendix all about it, go into detail in the references, etc.
I disagree. There needs to be some model, language etc to base the tutorial description on. You have already said that you don't think writing a guide to FSMs is the right thing to do. There are any number of books and even a standard ;-) that describe the UML FSM concepts so that Andreas doesn't need to. It would have been possible to pick some other complex FSM description language, but UML is supposed to be universal, and gets plenty of books, tools, courses etc built around it, so why not use it?
I think the example state machines are basically OK, but I think that it is absolutely essential that you include a simple example that is alphabet-based. In fact, some helper functions for alphabet-based languages are probably a good idea, just to make the tutorial easier.
Why?
Well, maybe this isn't the norm, but I was taught FSMs using alphabets-as-events. One of the first things *I* would do with the library is try and implement some examples out of my old college text. I figured most people were taught this way, and so having an example with that would help connect with something familiar.
Ah. So you probably want an example that is a recogniser for some regular language. I'd be very suprised if this was an area where boost fsm is a good choice, it would be interesting to see how you go. Also, if you want to constuct fsms to do this sort of thing quickly and easily, wouldn't you just use a regexp, or one of the plethora of lexer/parser construction tools and let it figure out the tedious details for you? I would expect (haven't got around to looking at it yet) expressive to be just the thing for that, but spirit would do the job too with a lot less typing than using boost fsm.
You mean the mapping between the pressed key and the generated event? Why?
I think it's probably a common thing to want to test your state machine by triggering events from the keyboard in a console app.
This isn't very useful if the fsm uses more complex event types. And conversely the despatch method used by boost fsm is less than spectacularly efficient if your events really are simple values.
I'm confused about why entering/exiting states causes construction/ destruction. It's taken as a given,
It is not: http://tinyurl.com/5mjra (State-local storage)
That's explaining why you offer state-local storage, which I have no qualms with. It doesn't explain why you use the constructor/destructor mechanism, it's just stated that's the way it is.
Think of a state as a scope. Think RAII.
but I would tend to assume that state-local-storage is maintained throughout unless I explicitly reset it.
Why?
Ok, I think I figured something out since I wrote this. You're relying on nesting states to maint data. I think this needs to be explained in big neon signs. I don't think of exiting a state as destroying it, just that it's no longer "active" or whatever. Your model is like a window manager that closes a window every time a different window gets the focus and reopens the first window upon return. Of course, having lost all data imbetween. Maybe hoisting your data up to an enclosing space is a good idea, but I'm not used to working with nested states, so I don't really think that way. I'm willing to be convinced, although I'm suspicious.
If you don't have nested states then your machine is flat and you would almost certainly have empty states and place all your actions and data in the machine. What is the problem?
I'm also surprised by the lack of "accept" states. Maybe it's not universal, but my theory certainly had them, and it's just disconcerting for them not to be there.
What do you want the accept state to do that is so special?
I don't know what accept states are. UML doesn't have them.
Now, I'm in no way an academic, so I'm relying on Wikipedia to tell me what's "normal." Since it's in line with my old textbook, I guess it's reasonably standard. Wikipedia tells me that there "acceptor" and "transducer" finite state machines. I've not worked with the "transducer" variety before; my text deals with them only in the exercises.
I'm more familiar with the use of the terms recogniser or scanner rather than refering to the fsm as an acceptor fsm, but yes, in lnaguage processing those terms are standard. Unfortunately, I think you are going to be disappointed if you try to use boost fsm in that sort of application. Not that that wouldn't be useful review feedback. Boost fsm is much better for what wikipedia informs me are called transducer fsms, a term I am unfamiliar with, but a class of fsm that I am very familiar with.
At any rate, with an "acceptor" FSM, if after processing all input you are in an "accept" state, the input was legal, the operation was successful, whatever. Otherwise there was an error. Not that everybody will use them, but it would be nice to be able to mark states as accept-states and ask the machine if the current state is an accept-state.
Ok - so given an otherwise flat fsm, put all your accept states in an outer state called - um - accept, and all the rest in an outer state called reject. When you receive the eof event it should be handled by the accept or reject outer state in an appropriate way.
I would certainly recommend adding http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite_state_machine to your list of links about FSMs.
It is not all that informative, but I learned a new word :-) Of course the important thing would be to make the link reciprocal - there are some pretty average links there now.
Darryl has already answered some of the questions (thanks again!), I'll only answer the stuff that he didn't cover.
Have you ever had a look at other FSM libraries? I think boost::fsm is less messy than any other library I've seen.
Unfortunately, no. My response is based on the fact that 1) I generally think I know what fsm are about, 2) I'm comfortable seeing complex template stuff, yet 3) sample code for simple state machines just didn't click for me. I feel like I'm in the target audience of the library, so I'm looking deeper to see if I can figure out why.
Ok.
// I guess there's no way to avoid declaring // these ahead of time?? class Machine, State1, State2, Event1, Event2;
Actually there is, but I found out about this only recently (Peter Dimov mentioned this in an unrelated post) and haven't changed the docs because I feared that this does not work on all compilers:
Instead of
struct Greeting; struct Machine : fsm::state_machine< Machine, Greeting > {};
you can write:
struct Machine : fsm::state_machine< Machine, struct Greeting > {};
Ok, good to know. I'd like to hash out what the "ideal world" would look like and compromise from there, if you know what I mean.
I think so, yes. I hope at the end of this discussion it becomes apparent that this is very much how the fsm library was designed.
struct S1Data { int i; S1Data() : i(0) {} };
typedef simple_state< Machine, S1Data, BOOST_TYPEOF( cout << constant("Entering State1.") ), BOOST_TYPEOF( cout << constant("Exiting State1.") ), on_event<Event1, BOOST_TYPEOF( _1->i++ ) >, transition<Event1, State2> > State1; // the "data" member of State1 has type S1Data, and is // passed into event handlers
You consider this more readable? Sorry, I have to disagree. For entry and exit actions and extended state variables I consider my approach superior, for reaction definition, your approach seems about equivalent.
I think this is how my example would look using the current library, right?
struct State1 : simple_state< State1, Machine, custom_reaction< Event1 >, transition< Event1, struct State2 > > { int i;
State1() : i(0) { cout << "Entering State1."; } ~State1() { cout << "Exiting State1."; }
result react( const Event1 & ) { i++; } };
Almost. You'd write the state declaration as follows: struct State1 : simple_state< State1, Machine, mpl::list< custom_reaction< Event1 >, transition< Event1, struct State2 > > > { /* ... */ } Moreover, you have to return with a function call from react, as follows: result react( const Event1 & ) { i++; return forward_event(); }
That's actually not so bad. I've defined both a reaction and a transition on the same event; not sure if you're supposed to do that.
You're not supposed to do that. While your example makes perfect sense, it does not make any sense to mix other reactions triggered by the same event (e.g. termination with transition). Therefore, there's the general rule that for a given event only the first reaction is executed (this is only documented in the reference). However, there is a chance that this will change due to unrelated reasons I don't want to outline here. To do what you want you'd write the following: struct State1 : simple_state< State1, Machine, custom_reaction< Event1 > > { int i; State1() : i(0) { cout << "Entering State1."; } ~State1() { cout << "Exiting State1."; } result react( const Event1 & ) { i++; return transit< State2 >(); } }; Note that it makes little sense to increment i before transiting (unless you access i in the exit action) because this will inevitably lead to the destruction of the state object.
Now I'm wondering if there's a way with mpl to determine if a class has a function with a certain signature. Can you eliminate the need for "custom_reaction< Event1 >" and just test whether or not the class implements "result react( const Event1 & )" ?
Not in a portable way, AFAICT.
If you could somehow hide the CRT mechanism,
CRT?
and specify children instead of parents, maybe you could boil down to something like so:
I don't understand, somewhere you absolutely must specify exactly where in the state chart your state "sits". I don't see how you can do that by only specifying children.
DEFINE_STATE(State1, transition< Event1, struct State2 >) { int i;
State1() : i(0) { cout << "Entering State1."; } ~State1() { cout << "Exiting State1."; }
result react( const Event1 & ) { i++; } };
And I think that's about as obvious as you can make it. But that may just be wishful thinking.
I think so, see above.
I don't understand, you do define states top-down in boost::fsm.
Maybe I'm confused, but as best as I can tell, you specify parents instead of specifying children.
For the moment I'll ignore the fact that you'll have to specify the inner initial state for each outer state (IIUC, this would qualify as specifying children). To answer your question: Yes, one needs to specify the parent (context) for each state and that context needs to be a complete type. This leads to the rule that you need to define your state_machine<> subtype first, then the outermost states then the states inside the outermost states and so on. To me, this is perfect top-down, is it not?
So, if StateX has StateY and StateZ as inner states, instead of saying StateX : StateY + StateZ, you say StateY -> StateX; StateZ -> StateX.
Yes, see above.
it's my impression that with mpl one can iterate through the template arguments and figure out if they are events or transitions or whatever. So I smushed together the different
One sure can but that would duplicate mpl::list<> functionality to a certain degree.
For "real-world" uses, this seems unimportant. However, for the tutorial and basic examples, I think it would be a good idea if you can silently ignore mpl. Of course those examples should compile and work... I don't have a feel for whether I'm asking for a mountain or a molehill here, so I'll let it be.
BTW, there's also a technical reason, not just lazyness on my part. A complete state definition can have *two* lists of things (one is the reaction list, the other is the list of inner initial states). You therefore absolutely need to have some kind of grouping or container construct. mpl::list is just perfect for that.
Given that the approach you outlined above really works, I think you can use lambda for transitions without changing a single line of boost::fsm, you simply define your own reaction that accepts typeofed lambda expressions instead of function pointers for transition actions. I'm not so sure whether the same is possible with entry/exit actions but I'm inclined to think that it is (that would require deriving your own state class template from simple_state).
I think it would be nice to have a mechanism that accepts lambdas, though I'll concede it is better to avoid it for "average joe" programmer. But since fsm is compile time, an advanced user might use another library/technique to programmatically generate the code she wants as a lambda type. It's always seemed that lambda had great potential as a compile time code generator, and fsm is a place where one might concievably stick it.
That's alright with me. As I said, I think it is possible to do that as a pure extension. You're welcome to submit such an extension.
Most people get used to the syntax of boost::fsm quite quickly. Also, I've received feedback that people really like the fact that they can easily put the bodies of complex actions in cpp files, I *guess* that would be a little more difficult with your approach.
Now I'm thinking that maybe a macro or two added to what you've got, just to hide some of the machinery, is all that it would take to get what I'm looking for. I'll grant you that I'm struggling to come up with what I think is "ideal." My main goal is boost::fsm using code should be reasonably "guessable" by an educated reader in short order. Basically, my coworkers should be able to look at my code and mostly be able to guess what was going on.
That was also one of my goals. Problem is that these "users" are just one part of the picture. The other part are the regular users and I'll always give the latter group the priority. If I can't satisfy the regular users I don't think the library is worthy for inclusion into boost, period. Now this doesn't mean that I can/will ignore the beginners but it means that I sometimes need to compromise in favor of the experienced user group. That said, I don't think it takes a lot of time (an hour at most) for an FSM- savvy first-time reader to understand code that uses boost::fsm. Of course, learning how to write such code takes a little longer.
[snip]
I'd say it takes one day tops of playing around with boost::fsm to learn this.
My concern is intimidating potential new users more than necessary.
Noted, this is a concern for me too. However, I don't see a lot of potential how I can further simplify the interface without constraining the functionality. I could surely provide state definition macros, but then again, I only want to introduce macros if I see *substantial* code-reduction. User who don't buy that can always define their own macros.
Like I said initially, I might have missed a ton of discussion about this from before. If you can point me to a thread where interface issues were hashed out in great detail already, I'll take a look.
IIRC, there never was a discussion about the pros and cons of the current interface.
I did consider using named template parameters, but rejected it because it would add to the amount of text you have to write and would offer a benefit only for beginners.
Me, I would probably cater a little more to the beginners, since I think getting more people to use FSM than previously would have to be a good thing.
As always it's a trade-off, see above.
tutorial just made my head spin, especially trying to figure out how states and machines get tied together (this is still unclear to me).
I guess you mean how the implementation ties them toghether? As a user, why do you need to know that?
When I first looked at the sample code, I was hunting high and low, thinking to myself, "Where on earth does it specify which states belong to which?"
Ok, but you're the first to wonder about that.
As I already mentioned in another post: Targetting every C++ developer would require an *additional* document at least as thick as the current tutorial. I think it is reasonable to expect previous exposure to FSMs.
Yes, I do not suggest writing your own guide to FSMs.
Good. [snip]
Getting Started" and "Target Audience" should be in a differenct document, and
Please make a suggestion.
Probably just in index.html.
I don't have an opinion on that. I guess I'll change it and see whether there's any negative feedback.
"How to read this tutorial" should be removed.
Why?
To me, is unnecessary verbiage. It doesn't say anything important. Perhaps you need better headings in the TOC. The ToC is currently broken up by the name of the example; perhaps rather than "StopWatch," say "Simple Finite State Machines - A StopWatch example."
Ok, noted. I'll see how it looks and proceed as above if I like it.
In general, all of your "remarks" and "comments" need to be in the code!
You're the second person to request that. I personally think it is better to not clutter code with too many comments. If people think it is better to have all comments in the code, I'll sure change it.
Having it in the code, both in the tutorial and in the example files, would help a lot, IMO. Especially the example files. If you could give me a better overview of the process and hold my hand better about which template parameters are which, I think I would have been much less confused.
Ok, I'll change that then. [snip]
I'm confused about why entering/exiting states causes construction/ destruction. It's taken as a given,
It is not: http://tinyurl.com/5mjra (State-local storage)
That's explaining why you offer state-local storage, which I have no qualms with. It doesn't explain why you use the constructor/destructor mechanism, it's just stated that's the way it is.
Well, if you accept all the reasons/requirements I give for state-local storage (and it seems you do) then I think the current design is one natural way to satisfy all these requirements. Especially, if you accept that some data is only useful as long as the machine resides in a certain state.
but I would tend to assume that state-local-storage is maintained throughout unless I explicitly reset it.
Why?
Ok, I think I figured something out since I wrote this. You're relying on nesting states to maint data.
Exactly.
I think this needs to be explained in big neon signs.
I think part of your misunderstanding is that you've never used nested states before. Anyway, in the Rationale for state-local storage I will add the code for a StopWatch that does not use state-local storage at all and I will explain there the benefits compared to the version in the tutorial. I will cross-link the two versions. I hope this will make it more apparent how I rely on state nesting.
I don't think of exiting a state as destroying it, just that it's no longer "active" or whatever.
See above, extended-state variables tend to have exactly the same lifetime as already existing states. Also, think of a state being represented by one bit. Zero means state is inactive, 1 means state is active. With state-local storage you can augment this one bit with whatever information you like.
Your model is like a window manager that closes a window every time a different window gets the focus and reopens the first window upon return.
I don't think that is an adequate comparison.
Of course, having lost all data imbetween. Maybe hoisting your data up to an enclosing space is a good idea, but I'm not used to working with nested states, so I don't really think that way. I'm willing to be convinced, although I'm suspicious.
See above, let me know if that did some convincing.
I'm also surprised by the lack of "accept" states. Maybe it's not universal, but my theory certainly had them, and it's just disconcerting for them not to be there.
I don't know what accept states are. UML doesn't have them.
[snip]
I would certainly recommend adding http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite_state_machine to your list of links about FSMs.
I'm not sure whether that would help people a lot. Mealy/Moore is explained but the more important (and more practical) Harel/UML approach isn't covered at all. Regards, -- Andreas Huber When replying by private email, please remove the words spam and trap from the address shown in the header.
Andreas Huber wrote:
I don't think of exiting a state as destroying it, just that it's no longer "active" or whatever.
[snip]
Also, think of a state being represented by one bit. Zero means state is inactive, 1 means state is active. With state-local storage you can augment this one bit with whatever information you like.
Of course, this does not explain why the variables need to be constructed on state entry and destructed on state-exit. So, in the context of this discussion this is nonsense. -- Andreas Huber When replying by private email, please remove the words spam and trap from the address shown in the header.
participants (3)
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Andreas Huber -
Augustus Saunders -
Darryl Green