Hi people, A link to this was recently posted in c.l.cpp.m but I thought you all would like to read it... http://www.neward.net/ted/weblog/index.jsp?date=20050413#1113402903230 Enjoy Fernando Cacciola
On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 22:39:28 -0300, Fernando Cacciola wrote
Hi people,
A link to this was recently posted in c.l.cpp.m but I thought you all would like to read it...
http://www.neward.net/ted/weblog/index.jsp?date=20050413#1113402903230
The followup is what got me "Joseph Ottinger wrote: I've wanted to see a boost.java type thing for a long time. " I've got only one reaction when the Java guys start coveting our libs: Boost Rocks! Jeff
My experience in this regard is surprising to me. One of my motivations for writing the serialization library and getting it accepted into boost was to add this to resume. I work as a contract software developer and I felt this would be helpful in getting more work. Eventually, I was successful in this quest and was pleased to add this to my list of projects being completed. This was expecially true due to the excruciatingly picky standards imposed by the peer review process. When talking with prospective customers, I'm please to point to the boost serialization library as a recent accomplishment. I'm amazed to discover that in only ONE single case have any of the programmers, managers, etc ever even heard of boost. This group even includes an ex head of the computer science department at a top tier university !!! When I first came upon boost, I was agog at the possibilities it opened up. The utiliy and power of the whole was blindingly obvious to to me. As I get older, I feel more and more disconnected from the rest of to programming world. I don't really have a point here - I just felt like responding. oh well. Robert Ramey
My experience is even worse in that, even when the existence of Boost was pointed out one client point blank refused to consider using ( parts of ) Boost. 'Not invented here' gone mad but it keep me in work longer so perhaps I should not complain. Keith Burton Robert Ramey wrote:
My experience in this regard is surprising to me.
One of my motivations for writing the serialization library and getting it accepted into boost was to add this to resume. I work as a contract software developer and I felt this would be helpful in getting more work. Eventually, I was successful in this quest and was pleased to add this to my list of projects being completed. This was expecially true due to the excruciatingly picky standards imposed by the peer review process. When talking with prospective customers, I'm please to point to the boost serialization library as a recent accomplishment.
I'm amazed to discover that in only ONE single case have any of the programmers, managers, etc ever even heard of boost. This group even includes an ex head of the computer science department at a top tier university !!!
When I first came upon boost, I was agog at the possibilities it opened up. The utiliy and power of the whole was blindingly obvious to to me. As I get older, I feel more and more disconnected from the rest of to programming world.
I don't really have a point here - I just felt like responding.
oh well.
Robert Ramey
_______________________________________________ Unsubscribe & other changes: http://lists.boost.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/boost
No one had heard of Boost at my current employer even though they had developed some pretty sophisticated generic code in house. The smart pointers are now used by most of the group and I'm trying to leverage more- the serialization library is a good candidate to wrap our proprietary hierarchical storage. In a series of interviews recently only one of the candidates had used Boost, he ended up getting the position. I can understand users' skepticism, there are many half-baked libraries out there, stalled, full of bugs and lacking good documentation.
-----Original Message----- From: boost-bounces@lists.boost.org [mailto:boost-bounces@lists.boost.org] On Behalf Of Keith Burton Sent: Friday, April 15, 2005 9:45 AM To: boost@lists.boost.org Subject: RE: [boost] Re: Boost to the rescue
My experience is even worse in that, even when the existence of Boost was pointed out one client point blank refused to consider using ( parts of ) Boost. 'Not invented here' gone mad but it keep me in work longer so perhaps I should not complain.
Keith Burton
Robert Ramey wrote:
My experience in this regard is surprising to me.
One of my motivations for writing the serialization library and getting it accepted into boost was to add this to resume. I work as a contract software developer and I felt this would be helpful in getting more work. Eventually, I was successful in this quest and was pleased to add this to my list of projects being completed. This was expecially true due to the excruciatingly picky standards imposed by the peer review process. When talking with prospective customers, I'm please to point to the boost serialization library as a recent accomplishment.
I'm amazed to discover that in only ONE single case have any of the programmers, managers, etc ever even heard of boost. This group even includes an ex head of the computer science department at a top tier university !!!
When I first came upon boost, I was agog at the possibilities it opened up. The utiliy and power of the whole was blindingly obvious to to me. As I get older, I feel more and more disconnected from the rest of to programming world.
I don't really have a point here - I just felt like responding.
oh well.
Robert Ramey
_______________________________________________ Unsubscribe & other changes: http://lists.boost.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/boost
_______________________________________________ Unsubscribe & other changes: http://lists.boost.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/boost
Well, in my country (Argentina) C++ programmers are the geeks of geeks in our software industry. Pretty much every job around is for for JE22, VB, and at most, some _old_ C/C++ for some legacy systems. In these lands, being a booster means close to nothing (to the Industry)... I even feel that the same nothing would mean to be, say, a commitee member :-) I'm afraid that C++ is largely _percieved_ as esoteric, complicated and unworthty worldwide. For more than a year I've been professionally coding only in C# just becasue the team I got involved into, based in the US, prefered to stay away from C++. I've been trying to dilude all those fears and maybe, if we were to start from scratch, we could do it C++, but when I joined C++ was like black magic. Similarly, about a year ago I joined a worldwide team (with people mostly in the US and Europe) that intended to develop _games_ in anything but C++ (can you believe it!). They purposedly insisted on avoiding C++, pretty much all of them! I tried and tried to bring them to their senses, by showing them that this particular industry was born from C an beyond, but it was fruitless.. but, well, they picked Delphi, even over C# and besides my strong suggestion, so what can I say... Before I quit my old job, about two years ago, we looked for a replacement... we seeked for many months, until we got tired of trying to get someone with some degree of _modern_ C++ knowledge... none of the "senior C++ programmers" interviewed knew about Boost, or at most they merely heard of it but never really used it... eventually, we got to the ONLY one person who at least really knew about STL... but it took us months to find him!! [I know all this is OT but I think is nice to raise the head up for a minute and see that we're a rare niche] Fernando Cacciola
Robert Ramey wrote:
I'm amazed to discover that in only ONE single case have any of the programmers, managers, etc ever even heard of boost. This group even includes an ex head of the computer science department at a top tier university !!!
FWIW, I've had similar experiences. I thought it would be a situation specific to the country I live in (Germany). While it's somewhat a relief to hear it isn't different elsewhere, it's also frustrating. It's pretty sad that someone like Robert who wrote an amazing and so useful piece of software and who managed to get it reviewed and accepted by most knowledgeable and experienced software developers doesn't receive any reputation bonus for his contribution. <lament> What makes me really worry is that many places even seem to be unaware of the fact that there is a C++ standard. I'm afraid most software is still being written by copy-pasting stuff from questionable sources on the web by people who don't understand what they're doing. </lament> Regards, m
On Fri, Apr 15, 2005 at 07:50:39PM +0200, Martin Wille wrote:
<lament> What makes me really worry is that many places even seem to be unaware of the fact that there is a C++ standard. I'm afraid most software is still being written by copy-pasting stuff from questionable sources on the web by people who don't understand what they're doing. </lament>
And from really bad books. There are several beginners' C++ books published every year, far too often by authors who barely understand the language, let alone how to teach it to a beginner. Worse still, the good books that are published often go unrecognised by the majority of programmers. Reading e.g. the "c++ in depth" series should not be seen as too advanced for most people. jon
At Friday 2005-04-15 11:21, you wrote:
On Fri, Apr 15, 2005 at 07:50:39PM +0200, Martin Wille wrote:
<lament> What makes me really worry is that many places even seem to be unaware of the fact that there is a C++ standard. I'm afraid most software is still being written by copy-pasting stuff from questionable sources on the web by people who don't understand what they're doing. </lament>
And from really bad books.
There are several beginners' C++ books published every year, far too often by authors who barely understand the language, let alone how to teach it to a beginner.
Worse still, the good books that are published often go unrecognised by the majority of programmers. Reading e.g. the "c++ in depth" series should not be seen as too advanced for most people.
which is the reason I recommend these books every chance I get (I guess this is a chance) http://rudbek.com/books.html
jon
_______________________________________________ Unsubscribe & other changes: http://lists.boost.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/boost
Victor A. Wagner Jr. http://rudbek.com The five most dangerous words in the English language: "There oughta be a law"
Martin Wille wrote:
It's pretty sad that someone like Robert who wrote an amazing and so useful piece of software and who managed to get it reviewed and accepted by most knowledgeable and experienced software developers doesn't receive any reputation bonus for his contribution.
Uh oh, maybe I made it sound worse that it was. Its not THAT bad. That was only one of my motivations. Obviously no sane person is going to go through that kind of torture for just one line on his resume. Actually, this is in line with my previous experience. Most of the things I set out to accomplish did end up being rewarding in a material sense - it just took a lot longer than I had anticipated.
<lament> What makes me really worry is that many places even seem to be unaware of the fact that there is a C++ standard. I'm afraid most software is still being written by copy-pasting stuff from questionable sources on the web by people who don't understand what they're doing. </lament>
My main point was my disappointment at how the programming community seems to see that everything is OK. The newer programming languages Java, C#, VB, etc don't offer anything new in my opinion. I feel like I'm the only person seeing this. Its lonely - that's why I monitor this list. Robert Ramey
Martin Wille wrote:
It's pretty sad that someone like Robert who wrote an amazing and so useful piece of software and who managed to get it reviewed and accepted by most knowledgeable and experienced software developers doesn't receive any reputation bonus for his contribution.
Having spent the last six months trying to recruit C++ developers and asking if they've heard of boost to be met with blank faces I tend to agree with Robert. BTW I have a couple of openings on the south coast of England :)
<lament> What makes me really worry is that many places even seem to be unaware of the fact that there is a C++ standard. I'm afraid most software is still being written by copy-pasting stuff from questionable sources on the web by people who don't understand what they're doing. </lament>
Its worse than that, many C++ programmers are oblivious to anything other than Microsoft libraries. Even STL??? (I'm not trying to defame Microsoft because what it does, it does to get the job done even if elegance/efficiency sometimes take a tumble).
My main point was my disappointment at how the programming community seems to see that everything is OK. The newer programming languages Java, C#, VB, etc don't offer anything new in my opinion. I feel like I'm the only person seeing this. Its lonely - that's why I monitor this list.
I disagree with respect to supporting libraries etc. I think C++ also needs to take a good hard look at itself and its usability. Just because through some perversion of templates and metaprogramming certain things can be done (cool even!), doesn't mean thats the way they should be done. Boost libraries are fantastic in what they do, but they are only a small subset of the tools that professional developers need to have at their fingertips. I can't help feeling that the C++ standard has NOT taken on anywhere near enough productivity libraries to stem the flow of programmers to .NET and (and in some respects java). Still in 10 years someone will realise productivity libraries and multi-threading really need to be built into any successful language including those expected to run quickly and efficiently.
I'll stop lurking only briefly, but... It sounds as though there'd be a market for a job openings/resume posting corner of boost.org. It seems a bit odd to duplicate the work of more general websites that do the same thing, but it would be nice to filter out both managers and programmers who have never heard of boost. I'd be willing to bet that my company would be happy to pay to put an ad there, and we're not really even actively hiring. -Fred
At Friday 2005-04-15 13:45, you wrote:
Martin Wille wrote:
It's pretty sad that someone like Robert who wrote an amazing and so useful piece of software and who managed to get it reviewed and accepted by most knowledgeable and experienced software developers doesn't receive any reputation bonus for his contribution.
Having spent the last six months trying to recruit C++ developers and asking if they've heard of boost to be met with blank faces I tend to agree with Robert.
BTW I have a couple of openings on the south coast of England :)
<lament> What makes me really worry is that many places even seem to be unaware of the fact that there is a C++ standard. I'm afraid most software is still being written by copy-pasting stuff from questionable sources on the web by people who don't understand what they're doing. </lament>
Its worse than that, many C++ programmers are oblivious to anything other than Microsoft libraries. Even STL??? (I'm not trying to defame Microsoft because what it does
Go ahead, defame them, they were actively trying to kill C++ right about the time the standard came out. C'mon, they released vc++6.0 just before the standard was ratified, then had an "official" position that backwards compatibility was more important than adherence to "any so-called standard". They STILL haven't fixed the bugs in the VC++6.0 STL which were offered for free by Dinkumware AND to add insult to injury they actually released a service pack SP6 within the last year as if that piece of scheiss actually warranted fixing (7.1 has been out for more than a year). There are too damn many Microsoft apologists in this universe. MS screwed the pooch w/ respect to C++ (their embedded compilers are based on that old VC++6 stuff instead of the 7 or 7.1). IMO they haven't done anything except make our lives more difficult. Don't get me too wrong, I use VS.net2003 for all my Windows projects (and I'm testing Whidbey in regressions too). I'm hoping that they're get things right. But we can't even get the intelligent people in boost to drop support for that piece-o-junk vc++6, how are we gonna convince the idiots?
, it does to get the job done even if elegance/efficiency sometimes take a tumble).
My main point was my disappointment at how the programming community seems to see that everything is OK. The newer programming languages Java, C#, VB, etc don't offer anything new in my opinion. I feel like I'm the only person seeing this. Its lonely - that's why I monitor this list.
I disagree with respect to supporting libraries etc. I think C++ also needs to take a good hard look at itself and its usability. Just because through some perversion of templates and metaprogramming certain things can be done (cool even!), doesn't mean thats the way they should be done.
Boost libraries are fantastic in what they do, but they are only a small subset of the tools that professional developers need to have at their fingertips. I can't help feeling that the C++ standard has NOT taken on anywhere near enough productivity libraries to stem the flow of programmers to .NET and (and in some respects java).
Still in 10 years someone will realise productivity libraries and multi-threading really need to be built into any successful language including those expected to run quickly and efficiently. _______________________________________________ Unsubscribe & other changes: http://lists.boost.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/boost
Victor A. Wagner Jr. http://rudbek.com The five most dangerous words in the English language: "There oughta be a law"
My main point was my disappointment at how the programming community seems to see that everything is OK. The newer programming languages Java, C#, VB, etc don't offer anything new in my opinion. I feel like I'm the only person seeing this. Its lonely - that's why I monitor this list.
They do offer something - astonignly fast compile times, compared to C++. I know of a friend who developed a roughly 30000 lines project which compiled in less than 1 second (while most of my projects take 2-3 minutes to compile, maybe even more -- and that is on a 2.8Ghz Intel processor). Best, John -- John Torjo, Contributing editor, C/C++ Users Journal -- "Win32 GUI Generics" -- generics & GUI do mix, after all -- http://www.torjo.com/win32gui/ -v1.6.3 (Resource Splitter) -- http://www.torjo.com/cb/ - Click, Build, Run!
At Friday 2005-04-15 10:50, you wrote:
Robert Ramey wrote:
I'm amazed to discover that in only ONE single case have any of the programmers, managers, etc ever even heard of boost. This group even includes an ex head of the computer science department at a top tier university !!!
FWIW, I've had similar experiences. I thought it would be a situation specific to the country I live in (Germany). While it's somewhat a relief to hear it isn't different elsewhere, it's also frustrating.
It's pretty sad that someone like Robert who wrote an amazing and so useful piece of software and who managed to get it reviewed and accepted by most knowledgeable and experienced software developers doesn't receive any reputation bonus for his contribution.
<lament> What makes me really worry is that many places even seem to be unaware of the fact that there is a C++ standard. I'm afraid most software is still being written by copy-pasting stuff from questionable sources on the web by people who don't understand what they're doing. </lament>
<snide reply> There are companies that are still married to VC++6.0 and _won't_ change. As a result, we all pay for their stupidity. I also notice (recently) that someone must have dumped a TON of Borland Turbo C++ 3.0 on the market. We're getting a lot of inquiries about "why won't it do this" in IRC (undernet/C++. </snide reply>
Regards, m
_______________________________________________ Unsubscribe & other changes: http://lists.boost.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/boost
Victor A. Wagner Jr. http://rudbek.com The five most dangerous words in the English language: "There oughta be a law"
Robert Ramey wrote:
I'm amazed to discover that in only ONE single case have any of the programmers, managers, etc ever even heard of boost. This group even includes an ex head of the computer science department at a top tier university !!!
I'd consider that fortunate - you've had one instance, one solitary experience where "the outside world" had heard of boost and could relate. I've never been so fortunate just yet. Most disheartening is the fact that the only time I've known of people actively recruiting "boost-knowledge" have been overseas vacancies. Even where I work, not a single sole had heard of boost, until I introduced it (covertly at first, and when people had found out, there was no going back - too much had since already depended on the libraries - a small win I'd say). It's interesting to see people come to terms with the technology, at first they try to avoid it, thinking it some kind of black magic - and slowly, they begin to learn for themselves. We now have libraries here, built on top of boost, which this organization could no longer do without - and could honestly never have had without the boost libraries. It's really a shame so few know or have heard of boost - even worse, those that know, and avoid it. :-(
[...snip ...]
oh well.
Robert Ramey
-- Manfred Doudar MetOcean Engineers 17.04.2005
"Robert Ramey" <ramey@rrsd.com> writes:
I'm amazed to discover that in only ONE single case have any of the programmers, managers, etc ever even heard of boost. This group even includes an ex head of the computer science department at a top tier university !!!
Two years ago I got hired to teach a one-week template metaprogramming course at a company in Canada. Never heard of Boost! -- Dave Abrahams Boost Consulting www.boost-consulting.com
participants (13)
-
David Abrahams -
Fernando Cacciola -
Fred -
Jeff Garland -
John Torjo -
Jonathan Wakely -
Keith Burton -
Manfred Doudar -
Martin Wille -
Paul Baxter -
Robert Ramey -
Terence Wilson -
Victor A. Wagner Jr.