
Hi All, I think the logo discussions are going very well. I've made several submissions, and received some positive feedback, but personally I don't care if one my submissions, or a variation, is selected. I'd just like to get a nice big collection of ideas so that we have a good selection to choose from. I think choice of a logo should be based largely on aesthetics, and is therefore a good candidate for a community-wide vote. The 'meaning' of a logo should be obvious -- or it's not a good logo. Also, I think it should be pretty clear which 'meanings' are reasonable to associate with Boost. My guess is that a simple voting system in which each person votes for just one submission will either result in a clear winner or narrow the field enough that we can avoid the potential problems being anticipated. However, in case my optimism turns out to be unwarranted, I have prepared two additional submissions. 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Jonathan Turkanis wrote:
However, in case my optimism turns out to be unwarranted, I have prepared two additional submissions.
Boy, you're really tempting me. I really like the second one. People who don't read the boost lists won't understand it, but everybody who does will!

Would it be possible to reach a consensus rather than taking a vote? It seems like rational discussion and analysis may be more effective in technical forums than popularity contests. If a vote is inevitable, then vote. But if its not, I don't see any reason to set us up for an inferior decision-making process. Aaron W. LaFramboise

"Aaron W. LaFramboise" <aaronrabiddog51@aaronwl.com> wrote in message news:41ACD90B.8080405@aaronwl.com...
Would it be possible to reach a consensus rather than taking a vote? It seems like rational discussion and analysis may be more effective in technical forums than popularity contests.
If a vote is inevitable, then vote. But if its not, I don't see any reason to set us up for an inferior decision-making process.
This must be your first Logo War. ;^) Jeff F

Aaron W. LaFramboise wrote:
Would it be possible to reach a consensus rather than taking a vote? It seems like rational discussion and analysis may be more effective in technical forums than popularity contests.
If a vote is inevitable, then vote. But if its not, I don't see any reason to set us up for an inferior decision-making process.
How can you rationally decide if a nice colored rocket is better than b/w logo from Joaquin that is beatifylly minimalistic? It's simply not possible. - Volodya

Vladimir Prus wrote:
How can you rationally decide if a nice colored rocket is better than b/w logo from Joaquin that is beatifylly minimalistic? It's simply not possible.
I agree that "beauty is in the eye of the beholder." But we may not be looking for beauty. Likely we are looking for a logo that meets a set of requirements, and further performs well versus a variety of useful tests. I do not think objective evaluation of a logo is any more impossible than objective evaluation of libraries to be included with Boost. I would suggest that, for each submission to the Wiki, a list is made of the logo's strengths and weaknesses. When Dominique remarks on the mailing list that a graphic looks "too busy," she should also record that fact on that Wiki so people later will be able to review each logo more effectively. A more thorough set of guidelines might also be helpful. Its difficult to make a good logo (and to decide which logo is good!) if we haven't defined what that is. Perhaps the short list of guidelines could be expanded (based on discussions on the mailing list) into slightly longer lists of "almost-requirements" and "recommendations." Perhaps, then, if or when a vote becomes necessary, the vote would be on how well each logo performs in each useful catagory, rather than a simple popularity contest. Aaron W. LaFramboise

"Aaron W. LaFramboise" <aaronrabiddog51@aaronwl.com> wrote in message news:41AD82CE.30006@aaronwl.com...
Vladimir Prus wrote:
How can you rationally decide if a nice colored rocket is better than b/w logo from Joaquin that is beatifylly minimalistic? It's simply not possible.
I agree that "beauty is in the eye of the beholder."
But we may not be looking for beauty. Likely we are looking for a logo that meets a set of requirements, and further performs well versus a variety of useful tests. I do not think objective evaluation of a logo is any more impossible than objective evaluation of libraries to be included with Boost.
I believe a logo should be simple, elegant, visually distinctive and say something very straighforward about Boost, such as that it has to do with C++, or has a relationship with the C++ standardization process. The differences between (i) Boost expands on the standard library (ii) Boost aims to produce libraries which will be standardized (iii) Boost aims to produce libraries many but not all of which will be standardized (iv) Boost aims to produce libraries of the same quality as the standard library are too subtle to reflect in a logo. If a logo requires detailed analysis to understand, it's no good. It's like a movie score: it makes you feel good, the movie would seem bland without it, but if you notice it and have to think about it the composer did a bad job. So it seems appropriate to collect a reasonably large number of logo proposals with very different designs and eventually vote on which is most pleasing. The various graphic design requirements that have been suggested are a bit too strict, IMO. It's not necessary for the logo to be in vector format, as long as high-quality raster versions are available in various resolutions. It's also not necessary that the logo should be renderable as a 16x16 pixel icon: it should be sufficient that an alternate 16x16 logo is provided which has clear stylistic connections to the main logo. The requirement that the logo look good in black and white seems sound, though. Best Regards, Jonathan

Jonathan Turkanis wrote:
"Aaron W. LaFramboise" <aaronrabiddog51@aaronwl.com> wrote in message news:41AD82CE.30006@aaronwl.com...
Vladimir Prus wrote:
How can you rationally decide if a nice colored rocket is better than b/w logo from Joaquin that is beatifylly minimalistic? It's simply not possible.
I agree that "beauty is in the eye of the beholder."
But we may not be looking for beauty. Likely we are looking for a logo that meets a set of requirements, and further performs well versus a variety of useful tests. I do not think objective evaluation of a logo is any more impossible than objective evaluation of libraries to be included with Boost.
I believe a logo should be simple, elegant, visually distinctive and say something very straighforward about Boost, such as that it has to do with C++, or has a relationship with the C++ standardization process.
That may not even be neccessary. Look at Adobe, Microsoft, Apple, UPS, ... Even FedEx only makes the vaguest semantic connection. I think visual distinctiveness is really the most important thing. It's more important that the logo *not* communicate the things we don't intend (e.g. amateurishness).
The differences between
(i) Boost expands on the standard library (ii) Boost aims to produce libraries which will be standardized (iii) Boost aims to produce libraries many but not all of which will be standardized (iv) Boost aims to produce libraries of the same quality as the standard library
are too subtle to reflect in a logo. If a logo requires detailed analysis to understand, it's no good. It's like a movie score: it makes you feel good, the movie would seem bland without it, but if you notice it and have to think about it the composer did a bad job.
Agreed.
So it seems appropriate to collect a reasonably large number of logo proposals with very different designs and eventually vote on which is most pleasing.
Agreed.
The various graphic design requirements that have been suggested are a bit too strict, IMO. It's not necessary for the logo to be in vector format, as long as high-quality raster versions are available in various resolutions. It's also not necessary that the logo should be renderable as a 16x16 pixel icon: it should be sufficient that an alternate 16x16 logo is provided which has clear stylistic connections to the main logo. The requirement that the logo look good in black and white seems sound, though.
No real objections, but why? -- Dave Abrahams Boost Consulting http://www.boost-consulting.com

"David Abrahams" <dave@boost-consulting.com> wrote :
Jonathan Turkanis wrote:
I believe a logo should be simple, elegant, visually distinctive and say something very straighforward about Boost, such as that it has to do with C++, or has a relationship with the C++ standardization process.
That may not even be neccessary. Look at Adobe, Microsoft, Apple, UPS, ...
Good point. I guess I should have said "simple, elegant, visually distinctive and possibly say something about Boost...."
Even FedEx only makes the vaguest semantic connection. I think visual distinctiveness is really the most important thing. It's more important that the logo *not* communicate the things we don't intend (e.g. amateurishness).
Right.
The various graphic design requirements that have been suggested are a bit too strict, IMO. It's not necessary for the logo to be in vector format, as long as high-quality raster versions are available in various resolutions. It's also not necessary that the logo should be renderable as a 16x16 pixel icon: it should be sufficient that an alternate 16x16 logo is provided which has clear stylistic connections to the main logo. The requirement that the logo look good in black and white seems sound, though.
No real objections, but why?
I can't tell which point you're questioning, so I'll elaborate a bit on all of them: i) raster vs. vector: Some designs may be hard to represent as vector graphics. I'm certainly not an expert, but it also seems to me that even for designs that are representable in vector format, we might find that we have better control over the rasterized versions that need to be used for various purposes if we produce them by hand, assuming we know the range of sizes we need. ii) 16x16: A lot of logos that look great in medium size won't look good as 16x16 icons, so we're unnecessarily limiting ourselves if we require that the 16x16 version be a small version of the image we choose to display on the web page itself. We have far more flexibility if we only require that we able to design a 16x16 icon which looks good and bears some resemblance to the larger logo. iii) b&w: This is just for people like me who print web pages using a black and white printer. Jonathan

Jonathan Turkanis wrote:
"David Abrahams" <dave@boost-consulting.com> wrote :
iii) b&w: This is just for people like me who print web pages using a black and white printer.
This one is what I meant. Seems like a nicety and a consideration, but a requirement? -- Dave Abrahams Boost Consulting http://www.boost-consulting.com

"David Abrahams" <dave@boost-consulting.com> wrote in message news:col8bi$qd4$1@sea.gmane.org...
Jonathan Turkanis wrote:
"David Abrahams" <dave@boost-consulting.com> wrote :
iii) b&w: This is just for people like me who print web pages using a black and white printer.
This one is what I meant. Seems like a nicety and a consideration, but a requirement?
Okay, your characterization sounds better. Jonathan
participants (6)
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Aaron W. LaFramboise
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David Abrahams
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Deane Yang
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Jeff Flinn
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Jonathan Turkanis
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Vladimir Prus