Hi, Last night I hosted a birds-of-a-feather session at the SD Best Practices conferences here in Boston. I was encouraged that, at a conference that only adopted a C++ track this year, we had 15 people there. It was about evenly split between people who were using Boost and those who just came to find out more about it. Those who were using Boost were really enthusiastic. I was stunned to discover that the rest of them reported that wanted to know what Boost _is_, but that the website doesn't tell them. And when they said that, it hit me like a ton of bricks: they're right! We really need a section at the top of the page titled "What is Boost?" that covers something like the following: * Boost is a collection of C++ libraries - Free for any use - Extensively peer-reviewed - Extensively Tested * When you download Boost, you get the whole collection * There are some dependencies among libraries, but they are not tightly coupled * There is a tool (bcp) for extracting the parts you want and their dependencies. * Many boost libraries can be used just by putting the library collection's top directory in your #include path. Complete instructions for getting started are at: ___ * The important features of the Boost directory structure are: - boost - libs - more - tools (with rough descriptions of each) I'd like to see some discussion of what's missing (or extra) in the list above... and a volunteer to write the introductory passage :) -- Dave Abrahams Boost Consulting www.boost-consulting.com
David Abrahams wrote:
Hi,
Last night I hosted a birds-of-a-feather session at the SD Best Practices conferences here in Boston. I was encouraged that, at a conference that only adopted a C++ track this year, we had 15 people there. It was about evenly split between people who were using Boost and those who just came to find out more about it. Those who were using Boost were really enthusiastic.
I was stunned to discover that the rest of them reported that wanted to know what Boost _is_, but that the website doesn't tell them. And when they said that, it hit me like a ton of bricks: they're right!
We really need a section at the top of the page titled "What is Boost?" that covers something like the following:
[snip]
I'd like to see some discussion of what's missing (or extra) in the list above... and a volunteer to write the introductory passage :)
How about the following for an introductory passage: The C++ BOOST Libraries are a series of free, peer-reviewed, STL compliant, portable and thread-safe C++ libraries; within the ear-shot of standardization. The libraries themselves reflect unparalleled quality, and are the epitome of modern C++ method, design, idiom & practise; and in so doing, lend themselves to more efficient throughput by virtue of powerful abstractions, whence code that is inherently more maintainable, scalable, and less error prone, hence quality driven. –The Boost Community constitutes professionals across a broad spectrum of industry and specialization; while a number of C++ Boost Library authors and participants include sitting members of the C++ Standards Committee Library Working Group. Cheers, -- Manfred Doudar MetOcean Engineers www.metoceanengineers.com
Manfred Doudar wrote:
The C++ BOOST Libraries are a series of free, peer-reviewed, STL compliant, portable and thread-safe C++ libraries;
That sounds a little too buzzwordy to my ear. What does 'STL compliant' actually mean ? Also, I don't think boost libraries are generally thread-safe, at least not in a general sense. I believe it would be best not to mention thread-safety in a short abstract, or else you'd have to detail the statement quite a bit to make it true. Regards, Stefan
How about simply: "By brutally abusing the C++ standard, Boost brings you some of the most efficient and powerful libraries out there. Many of these will become standard C++ libraries in the coming years." ;) -Jason
Stefan Seefeld wrote:
Manfred Doudar wrote:
The C++ BOOST Libraries are a series of free, peer-reviewed, STL compliant, portable and thread-safe C++ libraries;
That sounds a little too buzzwordy to my ear.
True - I wasn't too comfortable with it either, but I guess the question is what is the intended audience - nonetheless, I concur with you 100% in this regard.
What does 'STL compliant' actually mean ?
I would have thought it to be suggestive of interoperability with the STL, containers, iterators, ... etal But more appropriate rewording more akin to what is meant is in order.
Also, I don't think boost libraries are generally thread-safe, at least not in a general sense.
Up until now I thought its been a requirement (actually I know better - more so, its very desirable, as opposed to being mandated obligatory) that all Boost libraries be thread-safe. Nonetheless, I should probably ask for a qualification of 'general sense'.
I believe it would be best not to mention thread-safety in a short abstract, or else you'd have to detail the statement quite a bit to make it true.
It's a sticky/thorny issue to pin down tightly - but an appropriate wording would be worth the effort IMHO. Should it be any consolation, please note - the passage of my first post was the best I could come up with in a few minutes; nonetheless, I don't expect it to survive it's initial wording by any measure ;-) Cheers, -- Manfred Doudar MetOcean Engineers www.metoceanengineers.com
Manfred Doudar <manfred.doudar@metoceanengineers.com> writes:
How about the following for an introductory passage:
In my opinion? Too much hype and not enough meat. And you barely touched on any of the points I listed and think are important. -- Dave Abrahams Boost Consulting www.boost-consulting.com
Hi, "David Abrahams" <dave@boost-consulting.com> wrote in message news:uirwm4ipb.fsf@boost-consulting.com...
We really need a section at the top of the page titled "What is Boost?" that covers something like the following:
(Sorry I know that the main page has been redesigned recently.) Have you considered that the index page may be too busy. For example see : http://www.microchip.com/ There is a huge amount of information available but only headings are used on the index page. Using their approach I would guess that a link titled "About" would be suitable for those who want to know what boost is. IOW nothing much on the main page ...just links. "Welcome to Boost" main page | Maybe down the tree About --> What is boost ?-> People-> Site Map -> Libraries-> Download-> Documentaion-> Boost Newsgroups -> Contact -> As a user all I usually want from an index is to get to the particular information I need as quickly as possible by clicking on the appropriate link.( For instance how would I quickly find Supported Compilers via the current page)? regards Andy little
From: "Andy Little" <andy@servocomm.freeserve.co.uk>
"David Abrahams" <dave@boost-consulting.com> wrote in message news:uirwm4ipb.fsf@boost-consulting.com...
Have you considered that the index page may be too busy.
For example see :
There is a huge amount of information available but only headings are used on the index page. Using their approach I would guess that a link titled "About" would be suitable for those who want to know what boost is. IOW nothing much on the main page ...just links.
I find their page lifeless. I appreciate the amount of information offered, but there's too much. They need to categorize a bit more to reduce the number of links presented. I can apply a similar argument to Boost's home page. There are too many links, though they are presented far more beneficially in the sidebar. A bulleted list of salient points that are links to background information or details would serve well.
As a user all I usually want from an index is to get to the particular information I need as quickly as possible by clicking on the appropriate link.( For instance how would I quickly find Supported Compilers via the current page)?
You have to pick your audience for a home page. In our case it should introduce Boost to those completely unfamiliar with it. Everyone else can use another page. (That is, we can have a secondary home page, if you will, that omits the introductory text and related links and offers the links most useful to the rest of us. Then, you simply need to save a bookmark to that secondary home page to get your quick index to everything Boost.) -- Rob Stewart stewart@sig.com Software Engineer http://www.sig.com Susquehanna International Group, LLP using std::disclaimer;
"Rob Stewart" <stewart@sig.com> wrote in message news:200509282101.j8SL1cqQ022313@shannonhoon.balstatdev.susq.com...
From: "Andy Little" <andy@servocomm.freeserve.co.uk>
"David Abrahams" <dave@boost-consulting.com> wrote in message news:uirwm4ipb.fsf@boost-consulting.com...
Have you considered that the index page may be too busy.
For example see :
There is a huge amount of information available but only headings are used on the index page. Using their approach I would guess that a link titled "About" would be suitable for those who want to know what boost is. IOW nothing much on the main page ...just links.
I find their page lifeless.
Its functional which is much more important to users. If you were looking for data on a particular chip then you really arent worrying about how pretty it is. The best web pages are the ones you dont notice at all.
I appreciate the amount of information offered, but there's too much. They need to categorize a bit more to reduce the number of links presented.
Key point is that there is no content on the index page. By putting content right at the top of the home page you are assuming that you know exactly why the user is at the site. [cut]
As a user all I usually want from an index is to get to the particular information I need as quickly as possible by clicking on the appropriate link.( For instance how would I quickly find Supported Compilers via the current page)?
You have to pick your audience for a home page.
I dont think you can pick them! The game is not to lose them. In our case it
should introduce Boost to those completely unfamiliar with it.
This is a big assumption about the types of people that arrive at the home page.
Everyone else can use another page. (That is, we can have a secondary home page, if you will, that omits the introductory text and related links and offers the links most useful to the rest of us. Then, you simply need to save a bookmark to that secondary home page to get your quick index to everything Boost.)
FWIW I always start at www.boost.org because its easy to remember, but I am not unfamiliar. I should put a bookmark ? I have too many bookmarks already! Sounds to me like you are forcing users such as me into one mode of doing things. We wont like it!. Maybe the secondary page should be the home page ;-) regards Andy Little
From: "Andy Little" <andy@servocomm.freeserve.co.uk>
"Rob Stewart" <stewart@sig.com> wrote in message news:200509282101.j8SL1cqQ022313@shannonhoon.balstatdev.susq.com...
From: "Andy Little" <andy@servocomm.freeserve.co.uk>
Have you considered that the index page may be too busy.
For example see :
There is a huge amount of information available but only headings are used on the index page. Using their approach I would guess that a link titled "About" would be suitable for those who want to know what boost is. IOW nothing much on the main page ...just links.
I find their page lifeless.
Its functional which is much more important to users. If you were looking for data on a particular chip then you really arent worrying about how pretty it is. The best web pages are the ones you dont notice at all.
I disagree. When I see a page like that, my immediate thought is that the company doesn't really care about their image.
I appreciate the amount of information offered, but there's too much. They need to categorize a bit more to reduce the number of links presented.
Key point is that there is no content on the index page. By putting content right at the top of the home page you are assuming that you know exactly why the user is at the site.
When I see a page like that, I have to start hunting around to find the information on the site. What does the company have to offer? Why should I choose them over a competitor? If they don't prominently reveal that information on and from their home page, then they lose me.
As a user all I usually want from an index is to get to the particular information I need as quickly as possible by clicking on the appropriate link.( For instance how would I quickly find Supported Compilers via the current page)?
You have to pick your audience for a home page.
I dont think you can pick them! The game is not to lose them.
When you design anything, you must pick your intended user. When you design and write a document, you must pick your audience. Failing to do so leads to mediocrity at best.
In our case it
should introduce Boost to those completely unfamiliar with it.
This is a big assumption about the types of people that arrive at the home page.
The point of a home page is to be the starting point for visitors. Those visiting again are already hooked. Those visiting for the first time will be lost if the page doesn't appeal to their needs.
Everyone else can use another page. (That is, we can have a secondary home page, if you will, that omits the introductory text and related links and offers the links most useful to the rest of us. Then, you simply need to save a bookmark to that secondary home page to get your quick index to everything Boost.)
FWIW I always start at www.boost.org because its easy to remember, but I am not unfamiliar. I should put a bookmark ? I have too many bookmarks already! Sounds to me like you are forcing users such as me into one mode of doing things. We wont like it!. Maybe the secondary page should be the home page ;-)
I didn't say that the secondary page had to have a long or complicated URL. For example, we could use www.boost.org/main or any other short URL. Is that hard to remember or type? Besides, the home page will, obviously, have links to the additional content of the site and there can be a quick link to that secondary page near the top somewhere. -- Rob Stewart stewart@sig.com Software Engineer http://www.sig.com Susquehanna International Group, LLP using std::disclaimer;
"Andy Little" <andy@servocomm.freeserve.co.uk> writes:
Hi,
"David Abrahams" <dave@boost-consulting.com> wrote in message news:uirwm4ipb.fsf@boost-consulting.com...
We really need a section at the top of the page titled "What is Boost?" that covers something like the following:
(Sorry I know that the main page has been redesigned recently.)
Have you considered that the index page may be too busy.
Yes.
For example see :
Perhaps surprisingly, I find that hard to navigate.
There is a huge amount of information available but only headings are used on the index page. Using their approach I would guess that a link titled "About" would be suitable for those who want to know what boost is.
Yes. I don't care whether this goes on the main page, as long as it's not buried in a menu with lots of other material on the front page that overshadows the menu.
As a user all I usually want from an index is to get to the particular information I need as quickly as possible by clicking on the appropriate link.( For instance how would I quickly find Supported Compilers via the current page)?
How would you find that at all? -- Dave Abrahams Boost Consulting www.boost-consulting.com
"David Abrahams" wrote
"Andy Little" writes:
Have you considered that the index page may be too busy.
Yes.
(I guess you mean yes its too busy..) [snip]
( For instance how would I quickly find Supported Compilers via the current page)?
How would you find that at all?
You might try using the search engine on the home page ... but search result takes you back to the home page. Supported Compilers is right at the bottom so you wont find it unless I tell you that. IOW, even if you like the content , home page is way too long IMO. regards And Little
"Andy Little" <andy@servocomm.freeserve.co.uk> writes:
Have you considered that the index page may be too busy.
Since you mention it, take a look into the past: http://web.archive.org/web/20010923090025/http://boost.org/ That seems to be a big improvement over where we are now. -- Dave Abrahams Boost Consulting www.boost-consulting.com
"David Abrahams" <dave@boost-consulting.com> wrote in message news:uk6gya2zl.fsf@boost-consulting.com...
"Andy Little" <andy@servocomm.freeserve.co.uk> writes:
Have you considered that the index page may be too busy.
Since you mention it, take a look into the past:
http://web.archive.org/web/20010923090025/http://boost.org/
That seems to be a big improvement over where we are now.
Thats ok .. FWIW Enclosed is my view on it. IOW All links and no content. (Obviously the headings nned work.) regards Andy Little
"Andy Little" <andy@servocomm.freeserve.co.uk> writes:
"David Abrahams" <dave@boost-consulting.com> wrote in message news:uk6gya2zl.fsf@boost-consulting.com...
"Andy Little" <andy@servocomm.freeserve.co.uk> writes:
Have you considered that the index page may be too busy.
Since you mention it, take a look into the past:
http://web.archive.org/web/20010923090025/http://boost.org/
That seems to be a big improvement over where we are now.
Thats ok .. FWIW Enclosed is my view on it. IOW All links and no content. (Obviously the headings nned work.)
It appears to be neither plain text nor valid HTML, so I don't know what to do with it. -- Dave Abrahams Boost Consulting www.boost-consulting.com
"David Abrahams" <dave@boost-consulting.com> wrote
"Andy Little" <andy@servocomm.freeserve.co.uk> writes:
Thats ok .. FWIW Enclosed is my view on it. IOW All links and no content. (Obviously the headings nned work.)
It appears to be neither plain text nor valid HTML, so I don't know what to do with it.
Yep ..Sorry.. Not sure what the attachments problem is. Working on it. regards Andy little
"David Abrahams" <dave@boost-consulting.com> wrote in message news:uk6gya2zl.fsf@boost-consulting.com...
"Andy Little" <andy@servocomm.freeserve.co.uk> writes:
Have you considered that the index page may be too busy.
Since you mention it, take a look into the past:
http://web.archive.org/web/20010923090025/http://boost.org/
That seems to be a big improvement over where we are now.
I dont know why my attachments are being mangled. Meanwhile here is the text of the html page <html> <head> <title>boost C++ Libraries</title> </head> <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> <table border="1" bgcolor="#007F7F" cellpadding="2"> <tr> <td bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><img src="c++boost.gif" alt="c++boost.gif (8819 bytes)" width="277" height="86"></td> <td><a href="index.htm"><font face="Arial" color="#FFFFFF"><big>Home</big></font></a></td> <td><a href="libs/libraries.htm"><font face="Arial" color="#FFFFFF"><big>Libraries</big></font></a></td> <td><a href="people/people.htm"><font face="Arial" color="#FFFFFF"><big>People</big></font></a></td> <td><a href="more/faq.htm"><font face="Arial" color="#FFFFFF"><big>FAQ</big></font></a></td> <td><a href="more/index.htm"><font face="Arial" color="#FFFFFF"><big>More</big></font></a></td> </tr> </table> <h1>Welcome to <b><i>boost.org</b></i></h1> <p><b><i>boost</b></i> was begun by members of the <a href="http://anubis.dkuug.dk/jtc1/sc22/wg21/">C++ Standards Committee</a> Library Working Group to provide free peer-reviewed portable libraries to the C++ community. <b><i>boost</b></i> also aims to establish "existing practice" and provide reference implementations so that selected libraries are prepared for standardization.</p> <p> <a href = "license.html">License</a> The <b><i>boost</b></i> license.<br> <a href="libs/libraries.htm">Libraries</a> A quick overview of each library and useful information about the overall <b><i>boost</b></i> library structure. <br><a href="more/download.html"> Download</a> Download and installation information.<br> <a href="status/compiler_status.html"> Compiler Status</a> What library works with which compiler.<br> <a href="people/people.htm">People</a> <b><i>boost</b></i> people.<br> <a href = "membership">Membership</a> Discuss current boost libraries and review library proposals.<br> <a href="more/lib_guide.htm"> Submitting a Library</a> Guidelines and Information about submitting libraries to <b><i>boost</b></i>.<br> <a href="more/faq.htm">FAQ</a> Answers to some common questions we get asked. <br><a href="Latest News">News</a> Recent releases and events. <br><a href="http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=7586"> Tracker</a> View and submit bug reports, support, feature requests. </p> </body> </html> regards Andy Little
Maybe Changing browser will work! regards Andy little  c++boost.gif (8819 bytes) [1]Home [2]Libraries [3]People [4]FAQ [5]More Welcome to boost.org boost was begun by members of the [6]C++ Standards Committee Library Working Group to provide free peer-reviewed portable libraries to the C++ community. boost also aims to establish "existing practice" and provide reference implementations so that selected libraries are prepared for standardization. [7]License The boost license. [8]Libraries A quick overview of each library and useful information about the overall boost library structure. [9]Download Download and installation information. [10]Compiler Status What library works with which compiler. [11]People boost people. [12]Membership Discuss current boost libraries and review library proposals. [13]Submitting a Library Guidelines and Information about submitting libraries to boost. [14]FAQ Answers to some common questions we get asked. [15]News Recent releases and events. [16]Tracker View and submit bug reports, support, feature requests. . References 1. file://localhost/tmp/index.htm 2. file://localhost/tmp/libs/libraries.htm 3. file://localhost/tmp/people/people.htm 4. file://localhost/tmp/more/faq.htm 5. file://localhost/tmp/more/index.htm 6. http://anubis.dkuug.dk/jtc1/sc22/wg21/ 7. file://localhost/tmp/license.html 8. file://localhost/tmp/libs/libraries.htm 9. file://localhost/tmp/more/download.html 10. file://localhost/tmp/status/compiler_status.html 11. file://localhost/tmp/people/people.htm 12. file://localhost/tmp/membership 13. file://localhost/tmp/more/lib_guide.htm 14. file://localhost/tmp/more/faq.htm 15. file://localhost/tmp/Latest News 16. http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=7586
"David" == David Abrahams <dave@boost-consulting.com> writes: > * The important features of the Boost directory structure are: > - boost > - libs > - more > - tools > (with rough descriptions of each)
IMHO this section belongs to Getting Started, rather than What's Boost.
Liu Jin <cpp@vip.163.com> writes:
"David" == David Abrahams <dave@boost-consulting.com> writes: > * The important features of the Boost directory structure are: > - boost > - libs > - more > - tools > (with rough descriptions of each)
IMHO this section belongs to Getting Started, rather than What's Boost.
I don't believe that's useful information for the build/install user. People who were asking that question wanted to know, essentially, "When I get boost, what do I get?" which is why I included it. -- Dave Abrahams Boost Consulting www.boost-consulting.com
We really need a section at the top of the page titled "What is Boost?" that covers something like the following:
I think you should go with the exact copy you wrote in this email. Bullet-point list is much easier to understand than a few paragraphs of marketing waffle. Darren
* Boost is a collection of C++ libraries - Free for any use - Extensively peer-reviewed - Extensively Tested
* When you download Boost, you get the whole collection
* There are some dependencies among libraries, but they are not tightly coupled
* There is a tool (bcp) for extracting the parts you want and their dependencies.
* Many boost libraries can be used just by putting the library collection's top directory in your #include path. Complete instructions for getting started are at: ___
* The important features of the Boost directory structure are: - boost - libs - more - tools (with rough descriptions of each)
David Abrahams <dave <at> boost-consulting.com> writes:
We really need a section at the top of the page titled "What is Boost?" that covers something like the following: * Boost is a collection of C++ libraries - Free for any use - Extensively peer-reviewed - Extensively Tested
Would it be fair to also mention drawbacks of boost? I can currently think of two of them: pretty large impact on compiling-time and, in the case of rare bugs or misunderstandings how things work, it's sometimes/often/mostly (some poll could pick a realistic adjective) hard to peep in sources and see what's wrong - there are sometimes too many layers (which is good from some perspectives), too much usage of preprocessor (impressive design, but, the code is completely unreadable, especially to beginners) and too much compiler workarounds (they are good because you can compile, but they uglify the code, without a doubt). As a suggestion, would it be possible to make a section in which it is described, at least subjectively and somewhat imprecise, an impact of each library on compiling-time. P.S. Don't get me wrong; this wasn't written in attend of spitting towards Boost. I'm a real happy Boost user. No, really. ;)
Goran Mitrovic wrote:
David Abrahams <dave <at> boost-consulting.com> writes:
We really need a section at the top of the page titled "What is Boost?" that covers something like the following: * Boost is a collection of C++ libraries - Free for any use - Extensively peer-reviewed - Extensively Tested
Would it be fair to also mention drawbacks of boost? I can currently think of two of them: pretty large impact on compiling-time and, in the case of rare bugs or misunderstandings how things work, it's sometimes/often/mostly (some poll could pick a realistic adjective) hard to peep in sources and see what's wrong - there are sometimes too many layers (which is good from some perspectives), too much usage of preprocessor (impressive design, but, the code is completely unreadable, especially to beginners) and too much compiler workarounds (they are good because you can compile, but they uglify the code, without a doubt).
You forgot the 10M error messages and issues with compiler conformance! :D Actually, I think Boost should be part of any compiler-writers regression/conformance-testing (with the workarounds removed, of course) More on topic: yes, to a point. No more than one paragraph at the top with a link to getting-started. I also think the documentation links should be much more obvious, if not actually expanded to the library listing.
Would it be fair to also mention drawbacks of boost? I can currently think of two of them: pretty large impact on compiling-time and, in the case of rare bugs or misunderstandings how things work, it's sometimes/often/mostly (some poll could pick a realistic adjective) hard to peep in sources and see what's wrong - there are sometimes too many layers (which is good from some perspectives), too much usage of preprocessor (impressive design, but, the code is completely unreadable, especially to beginners) and too much compiler workarounds (they are good because you can compile, but they uglify the code, without a doubt).
As a suggestion, would it be possible to make a section in which it is described, at least subjectively and somewhat imprecise, an impact of each library on compiling-time.
P.S. Don't get me wrong; this wasn't written in attend of spitting towards Boost. I'm a real happy Boost user. No, really. ;)
I completly agree... Aspecially in part of preprocesor use... And I say it from the perspective of a beginer user... Adam Badura
"Adam Badura" <abadura@o2.pl> writes:
I completly agree... Aspecially in part of preprocesor use... And I say it from the perspective of a beginer user...
Making Boost sources readable by a C++ beginner is not one of our goals, and, practically speaking, conflicts with many of our other goals. If you need help understanding a library, you should be not be looking at the source, but its documentation, and if that fails, asking questions on this list. Looking into a library's source very commonly leads to misuse of that library. -- Dave Abrahams Boost Consulting www.boost-consulting.com
Goran Mitrovic <gmit@inet.hr> writes:
David Abrahams <dave <at> boost-consulting.com> writes:
We really need a section at the top of the page titled "What is Boost?" that covers something like the following: * Boost is a collection of C++ libraries - Free for any use - Extensively peer-reviewed - Extensively Tested
Would it be fair to also mention drawbacks of boost?
No, I don't think so. What other projects do something similar?
I can currently think of two of them: pretty large impact on compiling-time
You're kidding; using shared_ptr slows down your compiles??
and, in the case of rare bugs or misunderstandings how things work, it's sometimes/often/mostly (some poll could pick a realistic adjective) hard to peep in sources and see what's wrong - there are sometimes too many layers (which is good from some perspectives), too much usage of preprocessor (impressive design, but, the code is completely unreadable, especially to beginners) and too much compiler workarounds (they are good because you can compile, but they uglify the code, without a doubt).
That's four or five, not two. And whether those things represent disadvantages are a matter of opinion. If we didn't use the preprocessor, etc., Boost would be bigger, less portable, and harder to maintain.
As a suggestion, would it be possible to make a section in which it is described, at least subjectively and somewhat imprecise, an impact of each library on compiling-time.
No, I don't think so. That information is highly compiler- and usage-dependent and I doubt we could do a reasonably good job. And it will spark all kinds of arguments. That would be a mess. -- Dave Abrahams Boost Consulting www.boost-consulting.com
"David Abrahams" wrote
We really need a section at the top of the page titled "What is Boost?" that covers something like the following:
* Boost is a collection of C++ libraries - Free for any use - Extensively peer-reviewed - Extensively Tested
I believe that http://www.boost.org/more/proposal.pdf covers this quite well.
* When you download Boost, you get the whole collection
Is this a feature or just an unexciting fact? IMO this needs to go in the download section
* There are some dependencies among libraries, but they are not tightly coupled.
Then why do you need to download the whole collection?
* There is a tool (bcp) for extracting the parts you want and their dependencies.
Then why is it not available at the website? You still have to download the complete libraries. FWIW I would put all this information in the download section and/or in a using boost commercially section. Knowing no better I would expect to be able to download one library at a time, so boost needs to explain thats not possible at this point.
* Many boost libraries can be used just by putting the library collection's top directory in your #include path. Complete instructions for getting started are at: ___
This sounds like a FAQ
* The important features of the Boost directory structure are: - boost - libs - more - tools (with rough descriptions of each)
That is probably the beginnings of a Site map isnt it? Though the underlying directory structure is there it needs a site map to reveal it.
I'd like to see some discussion of what's missing (or extra) in the list above... and a volunteer to write the introductory passage :)
Sorry that my previous post sounds like a criticism. Rene Rivera has done a great job of redesigning the main page but that is only trying to paper over the cracks job IMO .The whole boost website needs to be redesigned. Most of the information above is available already somewhere but is difficult to find. regards Andy Little
Andy Little wrote:
Sorry that my previous post sounds like a criticism. Rene Rivera has done a great job of redesigning the main page but that is only trying to paper over the cracks job IMO .The whole boost website needs to be redesigned.
Yes, and it is being redesigned. But that takes time and is not a priority for any of us. -- -- Grafik - Don't Assume Anything -- Redshift Software, Inc. - http://redshift-software.com -- rrivera/acm.org - grafik/redshift-software.com -- 102708583/icq - grafikrobot/aim - Grafik/jabber.org
"Rene Rivera" wrote
Andy Little wrote:
Sorry that my previous post sounds like a criticism. Rene Rivera has done a great job of redesigning the main page but that is only trying to paper over the cracks job IMO .The whole boost website needs to be redesigned.
Yes, and it is being redesigned. But that takes time and is not a priority for any of us.
I'm not sure thats truse. Heres a quote, para2 from the OP: " I was stunned to discover that the rest of them reported that wanted to know what Boost _is_, but that the website doesn't tell them. And when they said that, it hit me like a ton of bricks: they're right! " And heres para 3 of the OP: " We really need a section at the top of the page titled "What is Boost?" that covers something like the following: " Ouch! Adding more randomly connected information on the current main page is probably just going to make the situation worse IMO. Whats needed is an overall strategy for the boost website. Isnt that what the OP is really about ? regards Andy Little
Andy Little wrote:
Ouch! Adding more randomly connected information on the current main page is probably just going to make the situation worse IMO. Whats needed is an overall strategy for the boost website. Isnt that what the OP is really about ?
I guess I wasn't clear enough, sorry. I meant it's not a "high priority". Dave and I work on it sporadically. And for me it's at the bottom of the Boost things to do. Bjam, Boost.Build, regression testing, and of course paying work being more urgent. Basically take Dave's post as the work that is being done on redesign, i.e. asking for input. And take my post of "being worked on" as an indication that something is getting done and *any* ideas are welcome. -- -- Grafik - Don't Assume Anything -- Redshift Software, Inc. - http://redshift-software.com -- rrivera/acm.org - grafik/redshift-software.com -- 102708583/icq - grafikrobot/aim - Grafik/jabber.org
"Andy Little" <andy@servocomm.freeserve.co.uk> writes:
"David Abrahams" wrote
We really need a section at the top of the page titled "What is Boost?" that covers something like the following:
* Boost is a collection of C++ libraries - Free for any use - Extensively peer-reviewed - Extensively Tested
I believe that http://www.boost.org/more/proposal.pdf covers this quite well.
* When you download Boost, you get the whole collection
Is this a feature or just an unexciting fact?
This is not about excitement or features. Unexciting facts are exactly what these people wanted, and were missing.
IMO this needs to go in the download section
Maybe it bears repeating there.
* There are some dependencies among libraries, but they are not tightly coupled.
Then why do you need to download the whole collection?
Because that's the way it is.
* There is a tool (bcp) for extracting the parts you want and their dependencies.
Then why is it not available at the website? You still have to download the complete libraries.
Because that's the way it is. Are these questions relevant to what should go in the What is Boost section, or are you just asking me?
FWIW I would put all this information in the download section and/or in a using boost commercially section. Knowing no better I would expect to be able to download one library at a time, so boost needs to explain thats not possible at this point.
That's what "when you download boost, you get the whole collection" means.
* Many boost libraries can be used just by putting the library collection's top directory in your #include path. Complete instructions for getting started are at: ___
This sounds like a FAQ
No, it is not a frequently asked question. In fact, it's not a question. It's one of the things people need to know up front when deciding whether to even to try Boost in the first place. "How hard will it be just to get an experience of this thing?"
* The important features of the Boost directory structure are: - boost - libs - more - tools (with rough descriptions of each)
That is probably the beginnings of a Site map isnt it?
No, the site may not reflect the Boost CVS structure forever. It's a very simple description of what people can expect to see in the decompressed archive they download.
I'd like to see some discussion of what's missing (or extra) in the list above... and a volunteer to write the introductory passage :)
Sorry that my previous post sounds like a criticism. Rene Rivera has done a great job of redesigning the main page but that is only trying to paper over the cracks job IMO .The whole boost website needs to be redesigned.
Definitely. -- Dave Abrahams Boost Consulting www.boost-consulting.com
[Yes, I'm way behind on my reading.] On 9/30/05 1:36 PM, "David Abrahams" <dave@boost-consulting.com> wrote:
"Andy Little" <andy@servocomm.freeserve.co.uk> writes:
"David Abrahams" wrote
[SNIP]
* There are some dependencies among libraries, but they are not tightly coupled.
Then why do you need to download the whole collection?
Because that's the way it is.
* There is a tool (bcp) for extracting the parts you want and their dependencies.
Then why is it not available at the website? You still have to download the complete libraries.
Because that's the way it is. Are these questions relevant to what should go in the What is Boost section, or are you just asking me? [TRUNCATE]
"That's the way it is" is a useless tautological response. Maybe a full explanation would help Andy more. For the first part, the Boost website used to host a separate ZIP file for each library. I guess that became impractical as dependencies among libraries happened, especially for the libraries that are meant to be mainly used as dependencies (e.g. Config or Utility). Preparing the code to be separate takes effort too, especially as libraries have gotten larger. Check out Spirit for a modern example of a semi-separate collection. (Does Spirit use BCP?) For the second part, the source for BCP is available. It's in the same directory as its documentation. I think it's a bug that the docs don't mention that. A finished BCP tool would have to be compiled for each platform, and would probably be in our SourceForge download area for efficiency. Anyway, I think BCP only works on local directories; and Andy is asking for a version that downloads over the network. That wouldn't be practical because our SourceForge downloads aren't that refined (nor made for automation). We would have to create high-bandwidth mirror sites that contain each file, individually, in the Boost archive. (And what about issues pertaining to which versions of library files you want: latest release vs. CVS head vs. CVS branch.) -- Daryle Walker Mac, Internet, and Video Game Junkie darylew AT hotmail DOT com
Daryle Walker <darylew@hotmail.com> writes:
[Yes, I'm way behind on my reading.]
On 9/30/05 1:36 PM, "David Abrahams" <dave@boost-consulting.com> wrote:
"Andy Little" <andy@servocomm.freeserve.co.uk> writes:
"David Abrahams" wrote
[SNIP]
* There are some dependencies among libraries, but they are not tightly coupled.
Then why do you need to download the whole collection?
Because that's the way it is.
* There is a tool (bcp) for extracting the parts you want and their dependencies.
Then why is it not available at the website? You still have to download the complete libraries.
Because that's the way it is. Are these questions relevant to what should go in the What is Boost section, or are you just asking me? [TRUNCATE]
"That's the way it is" is a useless tautological response. Maybe a full explanation would help Andy more.
I sure don't think Andy was looking for help; his post seemed to be a critique of my suggested web content. Those questions seemed to challenge the validity of the bullet points I was suggesting. I was trying to document the status quo, and "that's the way it is" was the best way I could find to express it. -- Dave Abrahams Boost Consulting www.boost-consulting.com
From: David Abrahams <dave@boost-consulting.com>
We really need a section at the top of the page titled "What is Boost?" that covers something like the following:
* Boost is a collection of C++ libraries - Free for any use - Extensively peer-reviewed - Extensively Tested
Those are fine as bullets. I suggest that each one be a link to an appropriate explanatory page. The first can link to the license page, the second to the review process page, and the last to the test process page.
* When you download Boost, you get the whole collection
As others have said, this should be on another page. I can see having a page that discusses library organization, directory structure, header-only design, bcp, etc. A bullet, in the above list, could point to that page with, "Easy to integrate into your development environment," if you like.
* There are some dependencies among libraries, but they are not tightly coupled
That's good, but I'm not sure whether you need to say that to the newcomer. At least shorten it to, "Low inter-library coupling," and put it in the bulleted list above.
* There is a tool (bcp) for extracting the parts you want and their dependencies.
Put this elsewhere.
* Many boost libraries can be used just by putting the library collection's top directory in your #include path. Complete instructions for getting started are at: ___
Covered above. This should not be on the home page.
* The important features of the Boost directory structure are: - boost - libs - more - tools (with rough descriptions of each)
See above. I don't think this should be on the home page. -- Rob Stewart stewart@sig.com Software Engineer http://www.sig.com Susquehanna International Group, LLP using std::disclaimer;
Rob Stewart <stewart@sig.com> writes:
From: David Abrahams <dave@boost-consulting.com>
We really need a section at the top of the page titled "What is Boost?" that covers something like the following:
* Boost is a collection of C++ libraries - Free for any use - Extensively peer-reviewed - Extensively Tested
Those are fine as bullets. I suggest that each one be a link to an appropriate explanatory page. The first can link to the license page, the second to the review process page, and the last to the test process page.
Good idea.
* When you download Boost, you get the whole collection
As others have said, this should be on another page.
No, it needs to be part of "What is Boost?" When these people asked that question, they wanted to know what they were getting.
I can see having a page that discusses library organization, directory structure, header-only design, bcp, etc. A bullet, in the above list, could point to that page with, "Easy to integrate into your development environment," if you like.
No, that wouldn't be appropriate for this section. First of all, it isn't really true yet. Secondly, it's a matter of opinion. These people needed "unexciting facts."
* There are some dependencies among libraries, but they are not tightly coupled
That's good, but I'm not sure whether you need to say that to the newcomer. At least shorten it to, "Low inter-library coupling," and put it in the bulleted list above.
That doesn't seem like a very significant change, but it also sounds like an improvement.
* There is a tool (bcp) for extracting the parts you want and their dependencies.
Put this elsewhere.
Maybe, if "low inter-library coupling" refers to something, it can be in there. However, if we're telling people they're going to get the whole Boost collection when they download, that question will come up naturally.
* Many boost libraries can be used just by putting the library collection's top directory in your #include path. Complete instructions for getting started are at: ___
Covered above. This should not be on the home page.
Whether or not any of this section belongs there really depends on the rest of the organization of the home page. That said, this point needs to go whatever section contains the rest of the information here. All of this information is needed in whatever introductory section we end up with. -- Dave Abrahams Boost Consulting www.boost-consulting.com
From: David Abrahams <dave@boost-consulting.com>
Rob Stewart <stewart@sig.com> writes:
From: David Abrahams <dave@boost-consulting.com>
* When you download Boost, you get the whole collection
As others have said, this should be on another page.
No, it needs to be part of "What is Boost?" When these people asked that question, they wanted to know what they were getting.
I disagree. A bullet or other prominent link that developers new to Boost can follow to find information on what Boost is at that level of detail would work fine. IOW, I don't want to put information on the home page that would go over the head of a manager considering Boost, yet I want a developer to be able to find that information quickly. As has been oft mentioned, the home page is too busy. Adding more won't make it better. I want to reduce the home page clutter while making important information accessible.
* There are some dependencies among libraries, but they are not tightly coupled
That's good, but I'm not sure whether you need to say that to the newcomer. At least shorten it to, "Low inter-library coupling," and put it in the bulleted list above.
That doesn't seem like a very significant change, but it also sounds like an improvement.
Making it shorter is better, but I was really trying to suggest that it ought to be on that "developers new to Boost, look here" page I'm suggesting.
* There is a tool (bcp) for extracting the parts you want and their dependencies.
Put this elsewhere.
Maybe, if "low inter-library coupling" refers to something, it can be in there. However, if we're telling people they're going to get the whole Boost collection when they download, that question will come up naturally.
Sure.
* Many boost libraries can be used just by putting the library collection's top directory in your #include path. Complete instructions for getting started are at: ___
Covered above. This should not be on the home page.
Whether or not any of this section belongs there really depends on the rest of the organization of the home page. That said, this point needs to go whatever section contains the rest of the information here. All of this information is needed in whatever introductory section we end up with.
I just want *two* introductory sections and this wouldn't be part of the one on the home page in my ideal. -- Rob Stewart stewart@sig.com Software Engineer http://www.sig.com Susquehanna International Group, LLP using std::disclaimer;
Rob Stewart <stewart@sig.com> writes:
From: David Abrahams <dave@boost-consulting.com>
Rob Stewart <stewart@sig.com> writes:
From: David Abrahams <dave@boost-consulting.com>
* When you download Boost, you get the whole collection
As others have said, this should be on another page.
No, it needs to be part of "What is Boost?" When these people asked that question, they wanted to know what they were getting.
I disagree.
You can disagree all you want, but I consider the feedback I got from newbies about what they need to know to be fairly good data, and I wouldn't second guess it unless you had some data to back up your position, too.
A bullet or other prominent link that developers new to Boost can follow to find information on what Boost is at that level of detail would work fine. IOW, I don't want to put information on the home page that would go over the head of a manager considering Boost, yet I want a developer to be able to find that information quickly.
As has been oft mentioned, the home page is too busy. Adding more won't make it better. I want to reduce the home page clutter while making important information accessible.
I don't care whether this is on the home page or not, as long as it's not overshadowed by other stuff.
* There are some dependencies among libraries, but they are not tightly coupled
That's good, but I'm not sure whether you need to say that to the newcomer. At least shorten it to, "Low inter-library coupling," and put it in the bulleted list above.
That doesn't seem like a very significant change, but it also sounds like an improvement.
Making it shorter is better, but I was really trying to suggest that it ought to be on that "developers new to Boost, look here" page I'm suggesting.
And why shouldn't that be right on the front page (eliminating much of the other stuff from the front page, of course)?
* Many boost libraries can be used just by putting the library collection's top directory in your #include path. Complete instructions for getting started are at: ___
Covered above. This should not be on the home page.
Whether or not any of this section belongs there really depends on the rest of the organization of the home page. That said, this point needs to go whatever section contains the rest of the information here. All of this information is needed in whatever introductory section we end up with.
I just want *two* introductory sections
Why? -- Dave Abrahams Boost Consulting www.boost-consulting.com
From: David Abrahams <dave@boost-consulting.com>
Rob Stewart <stewart@sig.com> writes:
From: David Abrahams <dave@boost-consulting.com>
Rob Stewart <stewart@sig.com> writes:
From: David Abrahams <dave@boost-consulting.com>
* When you download Boost, you get the whole collection
As others have said, this should be on another page.
No, it needs to be part of "What is Boost?" When these people asked that question, they wanted to know what they were getting.
I disagree.
You can disagree all you want, but I consider the feedback I got from newbies about what they need to know to be fairly good data, and I wouldn't second guess it unless you had some data to back up your position, too.
You're being obstinate, or so it seems from my end. I'm not saying we shouldn't provide that information. What you quoted shows me saying it should be on another page and below I suggested how that might be done. You dismissed those points and said we must have the information as though I said we shouldn't. I've been saying all along that the home page should be addressed to the business types and, to some degree, newbie developers, so that it provides high level, not terribly technical information on Boost. Others, whether the experienced developer new to Boost, or those well versed in Boost, can get information appropriate for them on secondary pages (with prominent links on the home page).
A bullet or other prominent link that developers new to Boost can follow to find information on what Boost is at that level of detail would work fine. IOW, I don't want to put information on the home page that would go over the head of a manager considering Boost, yet I want a developer to be able to find that information quickly.
As has been oft mentioned, the home page is too busy. Adding more won't make it better. I want to reduce the home page clutter while making important information accessible.
I don't care whether this is on the home page or not, as long as it's not overshadowed by other stuff.
Does that mean we're actually in violent agreement?
Making it shorter is better, but I was really trying to suggest that it ought to be on that "developers new to Boost, look here" page I'm suggesting.
And why shouldn't that be right on the front page (eliminating much of the other stuff from the front page, of course)?
See below.
I just want *two* introductory sections
Why?
Because I've said on many occasions, including in messages in this thread, that the home page should be directed at a different audience. I've previously suggested that there should be a secondary "home" page suitable for Boosters. Consequently, I'm advocating: - Simplify the home page considerably. It should target the business type, but have links to more details. - Put a lot of the information you're asking for (or at least the details thereof) on another page or several pages. Thus, a seasoned developer new to Boost can find a quick, business-level overview of Boost plus some prominent links to another page or pages with the sort of details needed to understand how Boost might fit into his/her development process. - Create a page more like what Andy's been asking for that provides all a Booster could want on a page that doesn't try to describe Boost, too. If that page had a really short URL, then Boosters could learn to type http://www.boost.org/something-short-here just as easily as http://www.boost.org. -- Rob Stewart stewart@sig.com Software Engineer http://www.sig.com Susquehanna International Group, LLP using std::disclaimer;
Rob Stewart <stewart@sig.com> writes:
From: David Abrahams <dave@boost-consulting.com>
Rob Stewart <stewart@sig.com> writes:
From: David Abrahams <dave@boost-consulting.com>
Rob Stewart <stewart@sig.com> writes:
From: David Abrahams <dave@boost-consulting.com>
* When you download Boost, you get the whole collection
As others have said, this should be on another page.
No, it needs to be part of "What is Boost?" When these people asked that question, they wanted to know what they were getting.
I disagree.
You can disagree all you want, but I consider the feedback I got from newbies about what they need to know to be fairly good data, and I wouldn't second guess it unless you had some data to back up your position, too.
You're being obstinate, or so it seems from my end. I'm not saying we shouldn't provide that information. What you quoted shows me saying it should be on another page and below I suggested how that might be done. You dismissed those points and said we must have the information as though I said we shouldn't.
It's just a misunderstanding. I was describing a "what is boost?" section; that was the title of my message and that was my focus. The front page or elsewhere was incidental. You obviously took me to be saying that all of this info belongs on the front page. I took you to be saying that the information should be on a different page from the rest of "what is boost?"
I've been saying all along that the home page should be addressed to the business types and, to some degree, newbie developers, so that it provides high level, not terribly technical information on Boost. Others, whether the experienced developer new to Boost, or those well versed in Boost, can get information appropriate for them on secondary pages (with prominent links on the home page).
No disagreement there.
I don't care whether this is on the home page or not, as long as it's not overshadowed by other stuff.
Does that mean we're actually in violent agreement?
Maybe.
I just want *two* introductory sections
Why?
Because I've said on many occasions, including in messages in this thread, that the home page should be directed at a different audience.
That doesn't explain wanting to have two separate introductory sections.
I've previously suggested that there should be a secondary "home" page suitable for Boosters. Consequently, I'm advocating:
- Simplify the home page considerably. It should target the business type, but have links to more details.
I don't know what a business type is, but usually terminology like that is used by someone who sees the "type" he's addressing as somewhat alien. I could be wrong, but it doesn't sound like you know that audience, and that makes me wonder why you want to direct the home page at them. Could you explain?
- Put a lot of the information you're asking for (or at least the details thereof) on another page or several pages.
My point was that most of it needs to be in one place.
Thus, a seasoned developer new to Boost can find a quick, business-level overview of Boost plus some prominent links to another page or pages with the sort of details needed to understand how Boost might fit into his/her development process.
- Create a page more like what Andy's been asking for that provides all a Booster could want on a page that doesn't try to describe Boost, too. If that page had a really short URL, then Boosters could learn to type http://www.boost.org/something-short-here just as easily as http://www.boost.org.
http://developer.boost.org -- Dave Abrahams Boost Consulting www.boost-consulting.com
From: David Abrahams <dave@boost-consulting.com>
Rob Stewart <stewart@sig.com> writes:
From: David Abrahams <dave@boost-consulting.com>
Rob Stewart <stewart@sig.com> writes:
From: David Abrahams <dave@boost-consulting.com>
Rob Stewart <stewart@sig.com> writes:
From: David Abrahams <dave@boost-consulting.com> >
It's just a misunderstanding. I was describing a "what is boost?" section; that was the title of my message and that was my focus. The front page or elsewhere was incidental. You obviously took me to be saying that all of this info belongs on the front page. I took you to be saying that the information should be on a different page from the rest of "what is boost?"
Got it.
I just want *two* introductory sections
Why?
Because I've said on many occasions, including in messages in this thread, that the home page should be directed at a different audience.
That doesn't explain wanting to have two separate introductory sections.
I want one on the home page that is focused on business needs, and another, on a separate page, that gives lots of technical details. Those looking for the technical details are going to be interested in the less technical content on the home page, but it will be insufficient. The secondary page will develop the points with much greater detail and will provide much more information.
I've previously suggested that there should be a secondary "home" page suitable for Boosters. Consequently, I'm advocating:
- Simplify the home page considerably. It should target the business type, but have links to more details.
I don't know what a business type is, but usually terminology like that is used by someone who sees the "type" he's addressing as somewhat alien. I could be wrong, but it doesn't sound like you know that audience, and that makes me wonder why you want to direct the home page at them. Could you explain?
Well, I'm not management, but I have had supervisory positions. Thus, "business types" doesn't include me. As a technologist, my focus is guided by business aspects, but is concentrated on technical issues. A manager, OTOH, is typically not terribly interested in the technical issues--at least until they prevent meeting a business goal--and often doesn't understand them. Thus, the manager needs quite different information to understand and feel comfortable with Boost than does the senior developer working for that manager.
- Put a lot of the information you're asking for (or at least the details thereof) on another page or several pages.
My point was that most of it needs to be in one place.
Perhaps I've helped you to see that some of the points you mentioned are useful for the business and technology oriented visitor and others are only of interest to the latter. Thus, some separation is warranted.
- Create a page more like what Andy's been asking for that provides all a Booster could want on a page that doesn't try to describe Boost, too. If that page had a really short URL, then Boosters could learn to type http://www.boost.org/something-short-here just as easily as http://www.boost.org.
http://dev.boost.org would simply replace "www" with "dev" and incur no additional keystrokes. I like it. -- Rob Stewart stewart@sig.com Software Engineer http://www.sig.com Susquehanna International Group, LLP using std::disclaimer;
Rob Stewart <stewart@sig.com> writes:
My point was that most of it needs to be in one place.
Perhaps I've helped you to see that some of the points you mentioned are useful for the business and technology oriented visitor and others are only of interest to the latter. Thus, some separation is warranted.
No, you haven't. The people I talked to were all tech people; this was the information they wanted. Empirical evidence like that carries a lot of weight with me. -- Dave Abrahams Boost Consulting www.boost-consulting.com
From: David Abrahams <dave@boost-consulting.com>
Rob Stewart <stewart@sig.com> writes:
My point was that most of it needs to be in one place.
Perhaps I've helped you to see that some of the points you mentioned are useful for the business and technology oriented visitor and others are only of interest to the latter. Thus, some separation is warranted.
No, you haven't. The people I talked to were all tech people; this was the information they wanted. Empirical evidence like that carries a lot of weight with me.
I haven't argued giving such people the information they need! I want to target the *home page* at non-technical people; too much technical information will turn them away. Therefore, I want to keep some of the more technical information off of the home page, and instead rely on a few links to refer technical visitors to it elsewhere on the site. Whether you gather all of the more technical information your "tech people" needed into one or several pages is mostly irrelevant to me--at this point, anyway. So, you could list some business oriented reasons why Boost is valuable to the visitor and end the list with a bullet referring to "technical benefits" that is a link to another page that the interested party can read. You could provide information, of interest to the business type, regarding how Boost fits into their organization and end with a link to information on how Boost fits into the development process. Again, the interested party can read the secondary page for more information. This approach allows the non-technical, business type to get enough information to allow a technical person to further evaluate Boost. It is that person that will want more than the home page offers. Doesn't this approach sound appropriate and beneficial? -- Rob Stewart stewart@sig.com Software Engineer http://www.sig.com Susquehanna International Group, LLP using std::disclaimer;
Rob Stewart <stewart@sig.com> writes:
From: David Abrahams <dave@boost-consulting.com>
Rob Stewart <stewart@sig.com> writes:
My point was that most of it needs to be in one place.
Perhaps I've helped you to see that some of the points you mentioned are useful for the business and technology oriented visitor and others are only of interest to the latter. Thus, some separation is warranted.
No, you haven't. The people I talked to were all tech people; this was the information they wanted. Empirical evidence like that carries a lot of weight with me.
I haven't argued giving such people the information they need!
It sounded like you were arguing for separating the information I was describing into two batches, one of which includes all the stuff that "non-technical" people want to read, and the other of which includes the rest. I simply oppose distributing the basic information needed by "technical" people across multiple pages. I think I might also object to having information for "non-technical" people on the front page, to the exclusion of information for everyone else. If moving any of this off the front page is appropriate, it should probably all go under an "About" link. -- Dave Abrahams Boost Consulting www.boost-consulting.com
participants (13)
-
Adam Badura -
Andy Little -
Darren Cook -
Daryle Walker -
David Abrahams -
Goran Mitrovic -
Jason Hise -
Liu Jin -
Manfred Doudar -
Rene Rivera -
Rob Stewart -
Simon Buchan -
Stefan Seefeld