[IBD] Help request, A Woman's Point of View
Hi, Joaquín Mª López Muñoz:
Just wanted to say you guys are doing a terrific job with this IBD initiative. It's amazing how many people have joined in in such a short amount of time, folks with various interests and skills, to form a truly multidisciplinary team.
Joaquin's post make me realize that we are not a _truly multidisciplinary_ team. We are currently lacking a woman's point of view. Is there any female Booster willing to help us? King regards Matias
----Original Message---- From: boost-bounces@lists.boost.org [mailto:boost-bounces@lists.boost.org] On Behalf Of Matias Capeletto Sent: 06 July 2007 13:07 To: boost-users@lists.boost.org; boost@lists.boost.org Subject: [boost] [IBD] Help request, A Woman's Point of View
Hi,
Joaquín Mª López Muñoz:
Just wanted to say you guys are doing a terrific job with this IBD initiative. It's amazing how many people have joined in in such a short amount of time, folks with various interests and skills, to form a truly multidisciplinary team.
Joaquin's post make me realize that we are not a _truly multidisciplinary_ team. We are currently lacking a woman's point of view.
Is there any female Booster willing to help us?
Why? I mean, what is there that is specifically different about a "woman's point of view"? I can certainly see that an /international/ point of view is useful (a native speaker to get the grammer right, a non-native speaker to remove colloquialisms for example), but I really don't see the point when it comes to men/women. Incidentally, why did Joaquin's post prompt the thought? Was it the use of "guys"? I was surprised when I first heard "guys" being used to refer to a mixed group of boys and girls - but that was 30 years ago, so the usage is pretty established. -- Martin Bonner Project Leader PI SHURLOK LTD Telephone: +44 1223 441434 / 203894 (direct) Fax: +44 1223 203999 Email: martin.bonner@pi-shurlok.com www.pi-shurlok.com disclaimer
On 7/6/07, Martin Bonner <Martin.Bonner@pi-shurlok.com> wrote:
----Original Message---- From: boost-bounces@lists.boost.org [mailto:boost-bounces@lists.boost.org] On Behalf Of Matias Capeletto Sent: 06 July 2007 13:07 To: boost-users@lists.boost.org; boost@lists.boost.org Subject: [boost] [IBD] Help request, A Woman's Point of View
Hi,
Joaquín Mª López Muñoz:
Just wanted to say you guys are doing a terrific job with this IBD initiative. It's amazing how many people have joined in in such a short amount of time, folks with various interests and skills, to form a truly multidisciplinary team.
Joaquin's post make me realize that we are not a _truly multidisciplinary_ team. We are currently lacking a woman's point of view.
Is there any female Booster willing to help us?
Why? I mean, what is there that is specifically different about a "woman's point of view"?
http://www.sfu.ca/~dkimura/articles/britan.htm
I can certainly see that an /international/ point of view is useful (a native speaker to get the grammer right, a non-native speaker to remove colloquialisms for example), but I really don't see the point when it comes to men/women.
Woman and man interests and skills can be complemented to achieve a better team. The other thing is that when a woman is present, we man tend to care more about our ways.
Incidentally, why did Joaquin's post prompt the thought? Was it the use of "guys"?
... folks with various interests and skills ... Anyway, I do not think there is any difference in productivity nor intelligence. I just want to have some girls among us because we are in 2007 and is incredible to only see mans jumping in. King regards Matias
There are also differences in vision: http://www.psycport.com/stories/ascribe_2004_07_14_eng-ascribe_eng-ascribe_0... Plus my psych book makes the claim that the density of cones in vision is higher in females than in males. Seeing as though documentation is partly a visual process, I find that pertinent! Jake On 7/6/07, Martin Bonner <Martin.Bonner@pi-shurlok.com> wrote:
----Original Message---- From: boost-bounces@lists.boost.org [mailto:boost-bounces@lists.boost.org] On Behalf Of Matias Capeletto Sent: 06 July 2007 13:07 To: boost-users@lists.boost.org; boost@lists.boost.org Subject: [boost] [IBD] Help request, A Woman's Point of View
Hi,
Joaquín Mª López Muñoz:
Just wanted to say you guys are doing a terrific job with this IBD initiative. It's amazing how many people have joined in in such a short amount of time, folks with various interests and skills, to form a truly multidisciplinary team.
Joaquin's post make me realize that we are not a _truly multidisciplinary_ team. We are currently lacking a woman's point of view.
Is there any female Booster willing to help us?
Why? I mean, what is there that is specifically different about a "woman's point of view"? I can certainly see that an /international/ point of view is useful (a native speaker to get the grammer right, a non-native speaker to remove colloquialisms for example), but I really don't see the point when it comes to men/women.
Incidentally, why did Joaquin's post prompt the thought? Was it the use of "guys"? I was surprised when I first heard "guys" being used to refer to a mixed group of boys and girls - but that was 30 years ago, so the usage is pretty established.
--
Martin Bonner Project Leader
PI SHURLOK LTD Telephone: +44 1223 441434 / 203894 (direct) Fax: +44 1223 203999 Email: martin.bonner@pi-shurlok.com www.pi-shurlok.com
disclaimer _______________________________________________ Unsubscribe & other changes: http://lists.boost.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/boost
Jake Voytko wrote:
There are also differences in vision:
http://www.psycport.com/stories/ascribe_2004_07_14_eng-ascribe_eng-ascribe_0...
Plus my psych book makes the claim that the density of cones in vision is higher in females than in males. Seeing as though documentation is partly a visual process, I find that pertinent!
Well, not really... cones are colour receptors, and most documentation is in black and white.
On 7/6/07, Paul Giaccone <paulg@cinesite.co.uk> wrote:
Jake Voytko wrote:
There are also differences in vision:
http://www.psycport.com/stories/ascribe_2004_07_14_eng-ascribe_eng-ascribe_0...
Plus my psych book makes the claim that the density of cones in vision is higher in females than in males. Seeing as though documentation is partly a visual process, I find that pertinent!
Well, not really... cones are colour receptors, and most documentation is in black and white.
From the project objectives: "Include nice looking logos and diagrams. Although Boost libraries are so great that they do not need any marketting at all, lets face it:
We want to change that: http://tinyurl.com/3dcg6o people are attracted like flies to catchy names and fancy pictures." By the way, Paul you really help me with my english in Bimap docs. It will be great if you can do the same for the project Wiki page: http://svn.boost.org/trac/boost/wiki/ImprovingBoostDocs Best regards Matias PS: This post is getting more attention that I was thinking, regrettably it is all from men. :(
From: Matias Capeletto
PS: This post is getting more attention that I was thinking, regrettably it is all from men. :(
That's because most programmers (the universe from which the boost community is drawn) are men. I don't know why that is, and I also have the impression that the situation is getting worse. When I started work both my bosses were women and fine programmers. -- Martin Bonner Project Leader PI SHURLOK LTD Telephone: +44 1223 441434 / 203894 (direct) Fax: +44 1223 203999 Email: martin.bonner@pi-shurlok.com www.pi-shurlok.com disclaimer
On 7/6/07, Martin Bonner <Martin.Bonner@pi-shurlok.com> wrote:
From: Matias Capeletto
PS: This post is getting more attention that I was thinking, regrettably it is all from men. :(
That's because most programmers (the universe from which the boost community is drawn) are men. I don't know why that is, and I also have the impression that the situation is getting worse. When I started work both my bosses were women and fine programmers.
Then lets change that! <important> Boosters: If you know women that knows and are interested in C++, please tell them that we need their help. Show them the Wiki page: http://svn.boost.org/trac/boost/wiki/ImprovingBoostDocs Thanks! </important> Best regards Matias, determined to get a woman for the project.
On 7/6/07, Matias Capeletto <matias.capeletto@gmail.com> wrote:
On 7/6/07, Martin Bonner <Martin.Bonner@pi-shurlok.com> wrote:
From: Matias Capeletto
That's because most programmers (the universe from which the boost community is drawn) are men. I don't know why that is, and I also have the impression that the situation is getting worse. When I started work both my bosses were women and fine programmers.
Then lets change that!
How? We're all open to suggestions. Boosters:
If you know women that knows and are interested in C++, please tell them that we need their help.
Herein lies the problem. I really don't know any, but would like to. :-( Jon
On 7/6/07, Jonathan Franklin <franklin.jonathan@gmail.com> wrote:
On 7/6/07, Matias Capeletto <matias.capeletto@gmail.com> wrote:
On 7/6/07, Martin Bonner <Martin.Bonner@pi-shurlok.com> wrote:
From: Matias Capeletto
That's because most programmers (the universe from which the boost community is drawn) are men. I don't know why that is, and I also have the impression that the situation is getting worse. When I started work both my bosses were women and fine programmers.
Then lets change that!
How? We're all open to suggestions.
Boosters:
If you know women that knows and are interested in C++, please tell them that we need their help.
Herein lies the problem. I really don't know any, but would like to.
We are more than 50 active people here, with lots of contacts. Someone will know a woman that like and can tackle C++ programs. Just wait... Best Regards Matias, hoping to be right about this... I will be very sad if I probe to be wrong.
On 7/6/07, Martin Bonner <Martin.Bonner@pi-shurlok.com> wrote:
----Original Message---- From: boost-bounces@lists.boost.org [mailto:boost-bounces@lists.boost.org] On Behalf Of Matias Capeletto Sent: 06 July 2007 13:07 To: boost-users@lists.boost.org; boost@lists.boost.org Subject: [boost] [IBD] Help request, A Woman's Point of View
Hi,
Joaquin's post make me realize that we are not a _truly multidisciplinary_ team. We are currently lacking a woman's point of view.
Is there any female Booster willing to help us?
Why? I mean, what is there that is specifically different about a "woman's point of view"? I can certainly see that an /international/ point of view is useful (a native speaker to get the grammer right, a non-native speaker to remove colloquialisms for example), but I really don't see the point when it comes to men/women.
I feel compelled to chime in here, being that I live in two worlds that have opposing gender imbalances - the world of programming/computer science (male dominated), and the world of dance (female dominated). And I have to say that I've definitely observed that dance communities (dance companies, classes, etc.) tend to be more lively (and perhaps even more committed and productive) if the gender imbalance is not too great. There's just something really nice about diversity, whether its gender, nationality, ethnicity, etc, in a productive environment. Maybe we're more likely to want to impress someone that is different than us, I don't know :-) Anyway, I'd really like to applaud Matias for actively trying to address the gender imbalance, since if it wasn't for the female dancers that were encouraging of my participation in dance, I wouldn't be a dancer now (and I suspect not nearly as happy a person). I think that until you start to fix the gender imbalance, you don't even realize what kind of useful feedback, opinions, and participation you might be missing out on. Just my two cents. Stjepan
On 7/6/07, Stjepan Rajko <stipe@asu.edu> wrote:
I think that until you start to fix the gender imbalance, you don't even realize what kind of useful feedback, opinions, and participation you might be missing out on.
Again, any suggestions, other than "please invite your (non-existent) female C++ programmer friends", would be extremely welcome. This is a huge problem industry-wide, not just w/ boost, which I personally would like to see fixed. AFAICT, no one currently knows how to solve the root problem, or even what the root problem actually is. If you can solve this, then a lot of universities and companies would probably be beating down your door for consulting help. Jon
-----Original Message----- From: boost-bounces@lists.boost.org [mailto:boost-bounces@lists.boost.org] On Behalf Of Jonathan Franklin Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 7:12 PM Subject: Re: [boost] [IBD] Help request, A Woman's Point of View
This is a huge problem industry-wide, not just w/ boost, which I personally would like to see fixed. AFAICT, no one currently knows how to solve the root problem, or even what the root problem actually is. If you can solve this, then a lot of universities and companies would probably be beating down your door for consulting help.
A few years back there was a (small) 'movement' within some OSS projects to tackle exactly this problem. To the best of my knowledge Debian was one of the first projects to institutionalise female collaboration within the debian-women subproject, see http://women.debian.org/ and http://lists.debian.org/debian-women/. Unfortunately I don't know the current state of affairs. Following those links you may find some further information. cheers, aa -- Andreas Ames | Programmer | Comergo GmbH | ames AT avaya DOT com Sitz der Gesellschaft: Stuttgart Registergericht: Amtsgericht Stuttgart - HRB 22107 Geschäftsführer: Andreas von Meyer zu Knonow, Udo Bühler, Thomas Kreikemeier
On 7/6/07, Ames, Andreas (Andreas) <ames@avaya.com> wrote:
A few years back there was a (small) 'movement' within some OSS projects to tackle exactly this problem.
To the best of my knowledge Debian was one of the first projects to institutionalise female collaboration within the debian-women subproject, see http://women.debian.org/ and http://lists.debian.org/debian-women/. Unfortunately I don't know the current state of affairs.
Interesting. If any current female boosters (do we have any?) want to spearhead something like this, I would be more than happy to present the idea to our local ACMW chapter (at USU). Jon
Martin Bonner wrote:
----Original Message---- From: boost-bounces@lists.boost.org [mailto:boost-bounces@lists.boost.org] On Behalf Of Matias Capeletto Sent: 06 July 2007 13:07 To: boost-users@lists.boost.org; boost@lists.boost.org Subject: [boost] [IBD] Help request, A Woman's Point of View
Hi,
Joaquín Mª López Muñoz:
Just wanted to say you guys are doing a terrific job with this IBD initiative. It's amazing how many people have joined in in such a short amount of time, folks with various interests and skills, to form a truly multidisciplinary team. Joaquin's post make me realize that we are not a _truly multidisciplinary_ team. We are currently lacking a woman's point of view.
Is there any female Booster willing to help us?
Why? I mean, what is there that is specifically different about a "woman's point of view"? I can certainly see that an /international/ point of view is useful (a native speaker to get the grammer right, a non-native speaker to remove colloquialisms for example), but I really don't see the point when it comes to men/women.
Incidentally, why did Joaquin's post prompt the thought? Was it the use of "guys"? I was surprised when I first heard "guys" being used to refer to a mixed group of boys and girls - but that was 30 years ago, so the usage is pretty established.
I agree with you. It is patronizing, and although perhaps not intentionally, insulting to women to say "we want a woman's point of view" ( or we want "some generalized X's" point of view ), unless it is something where women ( or X ) are noticeably different from men ( or the current group ). I can hardly believe that could ever be the case when it comes to working on the Boost documentation project.
----- Mensaje original ----- De: Edward Diener <eldiener@tropicsoft.com> Fecha: Viernes, Julio 6, 2007 7:37 pm Asunto: Re: [boost] [IBD] Help request, A Woman's Point of View Para: boost@lists.boost.org
Martin Bonner wrote:
----Original Message---- From: boost-bounces@lists.boost.org [mailto:boost-bounces@lists.boost.org] On Behalf Of Matias Capeletto [...]
We are currently lacking a woman's point of view.
Is there any female Booster willing to help us?
Why? I mean, what is there that is specifically different about a "woman's point of view"? I can certainly see that an /international/ point of view is useful (a native speaker to get the grammer right, a non-native speaker to remove colloquialisms for example), but I really don't see the point when it comes to men/women.> Incidentally, why did Joaquin's post prompt the thought? Was it the use of "guys"? I was surprised when I first heard "guys" being used to refer to a mixed group of boys and girls - but that was 30 years ago, so the usage is pretty established.
I agree with you. It is patronizing, and although perhaps not intentionally, insulting to women to say "we want a woman's point of view" ( or we want "some generalized X's" point of view ),
Well, that could be said of any affimative action policy.
unless it is something where women ( or X ) are noticeably different from men ( or the current group ). I can hardly believe that could ever be the case when it comes to working on the Boost documentation project.
Whatever the reason, it is a fact that women are severely misrepresented in the Boost community. If only from a practical point of view, we're somehow missing the opportunity to double our target market. If we work on the assumption that women are as valuable potential contributors as men are, then the only reasonable conclusion is that some aspects of the Boost culture are raising an unintentional entry barrier to that segment. We can just ignore the problem on the grounds of non-intrusiveness, or we can study the issue and see if we can improve things. Joaquín M López Muñoz Telefónica, Investigación y Desarrollo
"JOAQUIN LOPEZ MU?Z" <joaquin@tid.es> writes: [snip]
Whatever the reason, it is a fact that women are severely misrepresented in the Boost community. If only from a practical point of view, we're somehow missing the opportunity to double our target market. If we work on the assumption that women are as valuable potential contributors as men are, then the only reasonable conclusion is that some aspects of the Boost culture are raising an unintentional entry barrier to that segment. We can just ignore the problem on the grounds of non-intrusiveness, or we can study the issue and see if we can improve things.
I doubt that it has much, if anything to do with aspects of Boost culture, and rather has almost everything to do with the fact that the vast majority of C++ programmers are men. -- Jeremy Maitin-Shepard
In article <5D8503D66B71984E8D7F6651BA74D0596D0898@yew.PS.LOCAL>, "Martin Bonner" <Martin.Bonner@pi-shurlok.com> wrote:
Why? I mean, what is there that is specifically different about a "woman's point of view"? I can certainly see that an /international/ point of view is useful (a native speaker to get the grammer right, a non-native speaker to remove colloquialisms for example), but I really don't see the point when it comes to men/women.
How many women did you closely collaborate with on technical matters with before you reached that opinion? Ben -- I changed my name: <http://periodic-kingdom.org/People/NameChange.php>
participants (11)
-
"JOAQUIN LOPEZ MU?Z" -
Ames, Andreas (Andreas) -
Ben Artin -
Edward Diener -
Jake Voytko -
Jeremy Maitin-Shepard -
Jonathan Franklin -
Martin Bonner -
Matias Capeletto -
Paul Giaccone -
Stjepan Rajko