Math functions for Stastistics- feedback from TR2 proposal

Sadly I was not able to attend The Redmond meeting to present proposals myself, but Alisdair Meredith gave the following feedback: "I mentioned I would like feedback for stats functions, at least as a rough indicator on how to proceed. Unfortunately feedback was overwhelmingly negative. It is seen as a lot of work for a small audience with minimal commercial incentive. Bill Plauger went so far as to say given the chance again, he would not have taken on the current math functions and once bitten, twice shy. If this is to stand any chance of consideration, we need a cast iron case proving: i/ market demand ii/ reasonable implementability It is too early to be drawing the exhaustive list of functions. One approach suggested was that if we got an implementation into Boost, and there is feedback of widespread adoption, then there would be incentive to revisit the issue." I find this response rather baffling considering the importance of these functions for even the most basic statistics. I can only conclude that they are under the common delusion that computer systems are only responsible for reproducing the data input and does not extend to deriving information to justify action. As a very simple example, if you make several measurements on two things, whether racing driver lap times, pipe diameters, share prices, accident rate, ore yield, or pollutant levels, you need some of these statistics functions to be able to judge the probability that one is different from the other. So I am now asking for your views on if it is worth producing a Boost library version based on the existing Cephes implementation by Steven Moshier who has kindly agreed to make it available under the Boost licence terms. It would be a modest effort to rename the existing Cephes C double functions, and provide the C++ templates to use them. This would be a 'proof-of-concept' implementation, with some minimal testing (the original code has been quite well tested). But there would be a lot more tedious work to produce a full implementation including all three builtin floating-point formats, and perhaps the existing high precision UDT Floating point as well. I am sure you will understand I would not want to put a lot of effort into this, only to have it rejected by Boosters. Please let me have your views on if and how to progress this topic. Paul Slightly updated versions of my TR2 proposal are at http://www.hetp.u-net.com/public/math_stats_functions_tr2_v2.doc http://www.hetp.u-net.com/public/math_stats_functions_tr2_v2.pdf Powerpoint presentation of short bullet points used in my presentation to the UK C++ panel. http://www.hetp.u-net.com/public/Math%20functions%20for%20C%20and%20C++%20St andard.ppt and a text version http://www.hetp.u-net.com/public/Math%20functions%20for%20C%20and%20C++%20St andard.txt Paul A Bristow Prizet Farmhouse, Kendal, Cumbria UK LA8 8AB +44 1539 561830 +44 7714 330204 mailto: pbristow@hetp.u-net.com

On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 13:52:05 +0000 (UTC), Joel wrote
Paul A Bristow <pbristow <at> hetp.u-net.com> writes:
i/ market demand ii/ reasonable implementability
I personally would like to see these functions in boost.
Me too -- every so often I need these. Jeff

Hi Paul, "Paul A Bristow" <pbristow@hetp.u-net.com> wrote in message news:E1CKELE-0006rT-8N@he204war.uk.vianw.net... | Sadly I was not able to attend The Redmond meeting to present proposals | myself, Yeah, those who actually had implemented tr1 math functions was saying it was simply too hard to implement. | I find this response rather baffling considering the importance of these | functions for even the most basic statistics. FWIW, I agree with that and mentioned that at the meeting. | So I am now asking for your views on if it is worth producing a Boost | library version based on the existing Cephes implementation by Steven | Moshier who has kindly agreed to make it available under the Boost licence | terms. I would be *very* interested in that since I need something to be able to move on with boost.stat | I am sure you will understand I would not want to put a lot of effort into | this, only to have it rejected by Boosters. | | Please let me have your views on if and how to progress this topic. I would of course vote strongly in favor of such a library. So please go forward with the idea about wrapping a implementation with a boost licence. Once we have it in boost, I can start doing stuff in boost.stat. I hope this can be made into a standard proposal, which might then provide additional reason for the math functions to be in the standard. best regards Thorsten

Somewhere in the E.U., le 22/10/2004 Bonjour In article <cl62lb$3r3$1@sea.gmane.org>, "Thorsten Ottosen" <nesotto@cs.auc.dk> wrote:
Hi Paul,
"Paul A Bristow" <pbristow@hetp.u-net.com> wrote in message news:E1CKELE-0006rT-8N@he204war.uk.vianw.net... | Sadly I was not able to attend The Redmond meeting to present proposals | myself,
Yeah, those who actually had implemented tr1 math functions was saying it was simply too hard to implement.
You bet it's hard! *And* it takes time...
| I find this response rather baffling considering the importance of these | functions for even the most basic statistics.
FWIW, I agree with that and mentioned that at the meeting.
| So I am now asking for your views on if it is worth producing a Boost | library version based on the existing Cephes implementation by Steven | Moshier who has kindly agreed to make it available under the Boost licence | terms.
I would be *very* interested in that since I need something to be able to move on with boost.stat
As I have said before, yes, indeed, we do need a (boost) statistics library. If basing it on Cephes is the easiest path to get such a beast, then by all means let's use it! At any rate, this does not preclude modifications based on whatever input you can get (including of course what you can get here).
| I am sure you will understand I would not want to put a lot of effort into | this, only to have it rejected by Boosters. | | Please let me have your views on if and how to progress this topic.
Perhaps post a here a detailed overview of the task (what functions, their dependencies, a rough idea of how to implement them, already identified tough points...).
I would of course vote strongly in favor of such a library. So please go forward with the idea about wrapping a implementation with a boost licence.
Once we have it in boost, I can start doing stuff in boost.stat. I hope this can be made into a standard proposal, which might then provide additional reason for the math functions to be in the standard.
best regards
Thorsten
Agreed! Hubert Holin
participants (5)
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Hubert Holin
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Jeff Garland
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Joel
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Paul A Bristow
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Thorsten Ottosen