Hi Robert, Vicente, Olaf, Thanks for your answers! Robert Ramey schreef op 23-1-2015 om 23:37:
Barend Gehrels wrote
Hi,
Robert Ramey schreef op 23-1-2015 om 21:05:
Robert's perspective here, FWIW, is that he develops and tests (quite extensively) in a configuration in which all libraries are on their master branch and Serialization is on develop. Thanks for pointing this out. This is true and of course a big reason
Peter Dimov-2 wrote that for me the merge from develop into master IS trivial. Sorry I forgot to (re)mention that. You forget to point out all the other actions I mentioned in my list.
On this configuration, once everything is green, merge is as easy as "merge --no-ff develop". You've already tested it, so there's no way anything can fail. correct, that's why I do it this way. And it is dangerous. why? (btw - I don't use the --no-ff")
Unless you're not dependant on any other Boost library.
If you (with e.g. library Y) always work on develop and test with other librarys on master, you don't notice any other development or possible problem. That's a good thing!!!. I've the are libraries are in develop - they are not certified correct. If I test against the I get my failures along with everyone else's - and I have to sort them out by hand - which takes a lot of time as you've noticed. My way of doing things is more of a controlled experiment - I'm testing one thing (the serialization) library at a time while holding all the other variables (all the other libraries) stable. It's more accurate view of what I want to test.
Suppose you are dependant on library X. As soon as the schedule comes out, moment S, you merge again because it is trivial (moment T) , and you go on holiday. when library X comes out (is merged to master) - I don't merge - I update. If I then run my tests and there is a new error - I know it's the other guy and I can tell him. Note that my tests are not setup to test everyone else's stuff - they assume that the pre-requisite libraries are working. If I don't know that - then my tests are pretty useless.
Library X decides (at moment M, long before S), to change a return-type into something much better. You are using that feature. It happens. If he does this in the master, he's made a mistake in a public interface. I'll have to give him a hard time if I detect it. But I can't be expected to be able to debug everyone else's stuff.
As soon as the release schedule comes out, they stop developing, monitor regression matrix (for library X), and after a couple of days, just before the closing of master, they merge (moment U, after T).
Now your library is broken. It does not even compile anymore. You don't see it, because you are on holiday and have done the job. Even if you are not on holiday, you might not notice it immediately, depending on how often you compile. And the masterbranch closes... They don't see it because they run library X unit tests and not library Y unit tests. It will be found by the users of the RC though. Of course it is not your fault! Why the xxx did they change the return-type? But it is better... even you have to agree with that. And they did it already at moment M and they did send a notification to the Boost mailing list (which by chance you did not read).
If you had used develop for your developments, you would have noticed the breaking shortly after moment M already. all correct - but at least the error is obvious. The boost release manager will have to decide to ask to role back a breaking change or the rest of to adjust to it. The benefits of detecting this earlier are no where no near the costs of testing against all other libraries which are not known to be in a bug free state. So it can be dangerous. Chances are low, but it happens.
Another scenario, but I will not make it too long: library Z has a new feature you really need! Do you wait until they merge to master? Maybe, indeed, that is good practice. But it happens that another library uses it already earlier than that... both on develop. possible - but unusual. Again not worth the pain of chasing down everyone elses mistakes - which they likely know about anyway.
Of course this has its own drawback - the boost.org tests do not work in such a manner. True again! But I don't think this is a reason why I shouldn't do it for my own tests. My life is so much easier since I started doing things this way. Much of the back and forth cited above just goes away.
Barend - Why don't you try my approach as an experiment. It's super easy to set up. And if you don't agree that it makes your life a lot easier, it's just as easy to switch back. Try this an let us know how it works out for you. The approach is not so much different. You work always on master, I work on develop for the serialization library and the master for everything I need but don't have responsability for.
I always on develop. And sometimes (indeed) I check on master too, by the way, without immediately merging afterwards. I can tell you from personal experience that my way of doing things saves a huge amount of time. I used to do it your way - but never again!
But please react on the other points on the list too. Do you monitor the regression matrix? Wait for a couple of days? Or maybe it is not necessary for you? I need to check develop to look for failures in compilers I don't have - but that's about it. If things are stable for a couple of days, I then merge to master.
As I earlier point out, we have multiple people working on the library daily. You state that that makes no difference - is that really true? Git modularization supports the "feature branch" very, very well and very conveniently (especially with a GUI like SourceTree). I use it even though I'm working by my self. Each of your five people should be using a different branch. The should test against all the libraries in master and your library in develop. But they should only update their version of develop between times they're working on their feature. (subject to coupling problems of course). Anyone who has his feature working can merge into develop and let then let the rest of the team test it. The team leader - whom I presume is you - can decide when to merge develop in to master.
I agree this situation doesn't dovetail that well with boost.org testing.
Do you neatly update the docs every time you merge with master? No, I update the docs BEFORE I merge to the master. That is after it passes all the develop tests and before the merge so he docs are always in sync the code. And I don't even use DOxygen!
Theres another think I do - I increment the serialization library one feature at at time. when it works I merge it all the way through to the master. I may have a couple of features going at once because some urgent thing comes up while I'm working on something else. The upshot is that I'm basically always working on one thing at at time and pushing all they though to the master before I add the next thing. This diminishes wasted time by a huge factor. BTW - i've got almost 300 tests to watch. But really compared to what I was doing before - this is so much easier, and effective. I urge everyone to consider it. And remember - it's not a commitment - it's just a workflow which can be easily changed if it doesn't work well for you.
I really don't dispute the other points. its just that my of doing things results fewer iterations so the other issues are less problematic. For example I do wait a few days looking at the develop tests - if there's a bug I know its not mine but I keep an eye on it anyway. Of course I would prefer that the develop test matrix worked they way I work but it doesn't so I just live with it. My way is still better so I use it. No one seems to care - or even notice. No one has complained to me that I'm not testing their stuff.
I've talked to Rene about changing the boost.org tests to work in the way I do it. He appreciated the idea - but was concerned about the difficulties or implementing it on all the libraries one by one. I'm still convinced that testing each library in develop against all the others in master is the way to go - but since Rene does the work, he get's to decide. That is the boost way - as it must be. I don't know the details of that. Merging multiple dependant libraries is a complex thing, which can go wrong in many scenarios. Altering your workflow would make it much less burdensome.
That is why I thought that it was good to react on your statements that it is trivial. No problem, I appreciate another opportunity to make my case!
Things can be solved, and we can do our best efforts to do it as good as possible, but it is not trivial. OK maybe trivial is too strong - but not by much. Honestly, taking best advantage of our newer tools has made the job of maintaining the serialization library much, much easier than it used to be. But one has to change his practices.
It is clear, I will not go into detail on all the points again, most things have probably already been said. The message is test-with-master, merge-with-master, and we will do that more early and more often. Thanks again, Barend