April 2023 - Boost - lists.preview.boost.org

Re: [boost] Replacing the ML with a forum
by Mateusz Loskot 26 Apr '23

26 Apr '23

On Wed, 26 Apr 2023 at 19:26, Nikita Kniazev via Boost <boost(a)lists.boost.org> wrote: > > There is GitHub Discussion. What is wrong to enable Discussions on > https://github.com/boostorg/boost and use it? Indeed, why not try GitHub Discussions as a new space to evaluate interest in a Web-based forum. I'm happy with the current mailman, but if any migration is considered, then IMHO it should improve integration of comm, and not distribute it further. I'm not saying I'm a die-hard fan of GHD, but I am willing to trade some of my personal preferences for single place I go to. Best regards, -- Mateusz Loskot, http://mateusz.loskot.net

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Re: [boost] Replacing the ML with a forum
by Mateusz Loskot 26 Apr '23

26 Apr '23

On Wed, 26 Apr 2023 at 16:08, Vinnie Falco via Boost <boost(a)lists.boost.org> wrote: > > Are you using a threaded e-mail reader? Gmail, flat. I occasionally appreciate threaded view on lists.boost.org. > What is important to you (besides that you can continue to use your email client)? Usable search. Best regards, -- Mateusz Loskot, http://mateusz.loskot.net

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Re: [boost] Replacing the ML with a forum
by Nikita Kniazev 26 Apr '23

26 Apr '23

> Are you using a threaded e-mail reader? If so, do you care if discussions are changed to be flat (like Discourse)? I use Gmail which I think supports threads, but I subscribed to digests so no threads for me. > as no one in their twenties or earlier wants to use a mailing list I'm not from that demographic but I also don't want to use mailing lists. But I'm not a fan of 'forums' either. > What is important to you (besides that you can continue to use your email client)? 1. Main reason why I can't use the mail list: I don't want to subscribe to everything happening there. Probably there are email clients that make that easier, but that already excludes people who don't use such a client. 2. I subscribed to a digest and there is still no way to post to a thread without being subscribed to the mail list before it had been started. And even for one who had been subscribed it gives a wrong address to post to. 3. There is no way to link a post or thread. Inside the mail list itself or anywhere else. What are the options for a person who is not on the mail list? https://lists.boost.org? https://lists.boost.org is a user experience nightmare: 1. You can't post, only may create a new thread by mailing to the mail list. 2. You have to click on every message to read it. 3. In a threaded view you also can see only one message at a time, and it is easy to miss parts of the thread by clicking the wrong button. 4. Google and other search engines for some reason have indexing issues with it. Even if I know something was on the mail list or there is a comment in Boost's code with a link to a dead Gmane I had great luck finding absolutely nothing with multiple web search engines. 5. There is no code snippet syntax highlighting. 6. It doesn't interact with itself, or anything else either. > implement our own web-based forum I don't think it's a good idea. > The other alternative is to do a clean break and deploy something completely new, which would be Discourse. The downside of Discourse is that it does not support threaded discussions, and because of their philosophical objection to hierarchical conversations >From my experience with Discourse a post will contain a list of replies to it which you can jump back and forth. I don't see a great value in highly branched discussions, it is impossible to follow even on things like Hacker News or Reddit, just create a new thread. And... There is GitHub Discussion. What is wrong to enable Discussions on https://github.com/boostorg/boost and use it? AFAIK it supports posting from a mail client and subscribing to it to receive everything or just subscribed threads by emails? > * Written in Ruby, a dying language GitHub is written in Ruby :-)

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Re: [boost] Replacing the ML with a forum
by Niall Douglas 26 Apr '23

26 Apr '23

On 26/04/2023 15:43, Vinnie Falco via Boost wrote: > On Wed, Apr 26, 2023 at 7:12 AM Marshall Clow via Boost > <boost(a)lists.boost.org> wrote: >>> Are you using a threaded e-mail reader? If so, do you care if >>> discussions are changed to be flat (like Discourse)? >> >> Yes, and Yes. > > The current situation is this. For various reasons, we have no forum > for the new website. And a new forum is crucial for attracting new > people, as no one in their twenties or earlier wants to use a mailing > list. Twenty somethings don't use discussion forums either. Too passe. Re: Implementation last time this was discussed here and options investigated we found that https://fossil-scm.org/forum/forum implemented a web discussion forum with mailing list interface. One could use either interface, they were equivalent, and the UI seemed to meet approval here. I remember there were also other web discussion forum implementations with mailing list interface, but Fossil was the least unacceptable of them according to here, back in the day. Now, as to whether it could be improved upon, surely yes. However ever since Google stopped indexing discussion forms, I don't think they're the draw of users that they were. Nowadays if you can't find it on TikTok, it doesn't really exist for the under thirties. Niall

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Re: [boost] Replacing the ML with a forum
by Andrea Bocci 26 Apr '23

26 Apr '23

On Wed, 26 Apr 2023 at 16:09, Vinnie Falco via Boost <boost(a)lists.boost.org> wrote: > Before we replace the mailing list with a forum (and implement a mail > gateway) can I get feedback on how you use the mailing list from your > email client? > > Are you using a threaded e-mail reader? If so, do you care if > discussions are changed to be flat (like Discourse)? What is important > to you (besides that you can continue to use your email client)? > Very simply, if you replace the mailing list(s) with a forum (or fora), I will stop following any Boost discussion. Best of luck, .Andrea -- Dr. Andrea Bocci Applied Physicist, CMS Experiment <https://cms.cern/>EP-CMD, CERN <https://home.cern/>168990 (+41 75 411 8990) CERN 40/1-B01 <https://maps.cern.ch/mapsearch/mapsearch.htm?n=['40/1-B01']> E27810 Esplanade des particules, 1, CH-1211 Geneve 23, Switzerland <https://goo.gl/maps/AMjHdhXzYk2itSu7A>

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Re: [boost] Replacing the ML with a forum
by Stefan Seefeld 26 Apr '23

26 Apr '23

On Wed, Apr 26, 2023 at 10:53 AM Vinnie Falco via Boost < boost(a)lists.boost.org> wrote: > > Pros of Writing It Ourselves > > * Uses Python, a popular language > * Preserved mailing list experience > * Threaded discussions > * Customized to suit our needs > > Cons of Writing it Ourselves > > * More expensive long-term > * Takes longer to reach feature parity > * We have to maintain it > > Note, the C++ Alliance is covering all of the expenses for development > so the expense issue is not of particular importance, our priority is > on getting things done perfectly for users even if it costs a bit > more. > Perhaps there is a middle-way: layering whatever customization you need on top of existing infrastructure (e.g. Mailman) ? This could even be submitted upstream, if there is enough common interest, so Boost wouldn't have to own and maintain it in the long term... ...ich hab' noch einen Koffer in Berlin...

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Re: [boost] Replacing the ML with a forum
by Andrey Semashev 26 Apr '23

26 Apr '23

On April 26, 2023 5:08:49 PM Vinnie Falco via Boost <boost(a)lists.boost.org> wrote: > Before we replace the mailing list with a forum (and implement a mail > gateway) can I get feedback on how you use the mailing list from your > email client? > > Are you using a threaded e-mail reader? If so, do you care if > discussions are changed to be flat (like Discourse)? What is important > to you (besides that you can continue to use your email client)? Personally, I don't group posts by threads and read everything flat. But I recognize that others may have different preference, and one of the advantages of ML is that everyone can configure their mail client the way they want. I think this liberty should be preserved.

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Re: [boost] Replacing the ML with a forum
by Vinnie Falco 26 Apr '23

26 Apr '23

On Wed, Apr 26, 2023 at 7:12 AM Marshall Clow via Boost <boost(a)lists.boost.org> wrote: > > Are you using a threaded e-mail reader? If so, do you care if > > discussions are changed to be flat (like Discourse)? > > Yes, and Yes. The current situation is this. For various reasons, we have no forum for the new website. And a new forum is crucial for attracting new people, as no one in their twenties or earlier wants to use a mailing list. However, we also recognize the importance of preserving the mailing list interface and threaded discussion model. After spending months of doing tests and looking at existing solutions, we have reached the conclusion that the only way to bring maximal satisfaction to the community is for us to implement our own web-based forum which supports threaded discussion and also has a mailing list interface, such that the mailing list experience is unchanged for those who still want to use it (which seems to be quite a few people). The other alternative is to do a clean break and deploy something completely new, which would be Discourse. The downside of Discourse is that it does not support threaded discussions, and because of their philosophical objection to hierarchical conversations, it most certainly never will. Check this out: https://community.lsst.org/t/understanding-and-using-discourses-flat-thread… This rationale sounds very good on paper and it probably works for things such as support fourms. But it is poorly suited for the specific nature of the Boost mailing list where discussions can rage for months (I miss that). Enormous discussions were the bread and butter of the social experience and that needs to be revitalized. Anyway... Pros of Discourse: * Already written * Has an email interface * Can be restyled to match the site (mostly) * Probably cheaper long-term Cons of Discourse: * No threaded discussion * Written in Ruby, a dying language --- Pros of Writing It Ourselves * Uses Python, a popular language * Preserved mailing list experience * Threaded discussions * Customized to suit our needs Cons of Writing it Ourselves * More expensive long-term * Takes longer to reach feature parity * We have to maintain it Note, the C++ Alliance is covering all of the expenses for development so the expense issue is not of particular importance, our priority is on getting things done perfectly for users even if it costs a bit more.

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Re: [boost] Replacing the ML with a forum
by René Ferdinand Rivera Morell 26 Apr '23

26 Apr '23

On Wed, Apr 26, 2023 at 9:08 AM Vinnie Falco via Boost <boost(a)lists.boost.org> wrote: > > Are you using a threaded e-mail reader? I use Gmail, so no? > What is important> to you (besides that you can continue to use your email client)? Good, email/forum specific search. -- -- René Ferdinand Rivera Morell -- Don't Assume Anything -- No Supone Nada -- Robot Dreams - http://robot-dreams.net

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Re: [boost] Replacing the ML with a forum
by Stefan Seefeld 26 Apr '23

26 Apr '23

On Wed, Apr 26, 2023 at 10:08 AM Vinnie Falco via Boost < boost(a)lists.boost.org> wrote: > Before we replace the mailing list with a forum (and implement a mail > gateway) can I get feedback on how you use the mailing list from your > email client? > > Are you using a threaded e-mail reader? If so, do you care if > discussions are changed to be flat (like Discourse)? What is important > to you (besides that you can continue to use your email client)? > yes !! Boost discussions sometimes go on for months, so having a structured view of the whole conversation is essential not to get lost. ...ich hab' noch einen Koffer in Berlin...

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